4 ms·

Always amazed how different countries do democracy and many people think it is the only way to do. E.g. in the UK there is much resistance to needing an ID to v

Always amazed how different countries do democracy and many people think it is the only way to do. E.g. in the UK there is much resistance to needing an ID to vote, while here in Germany we've been voting 70 years with IDs. And we always vote on Sundays, which many Americans could not believe. Amazed about the many different ways.

mft_ 3y ago
We've found something that Germans do on Sundays? I guess there really is an exception to every rule ;)
- KingOfCoders 3y ago
  Most Germans do car washing on Sundays ;-)
  - tleilaxu 3y ago
    Quietly, I hope…
SllX 3y ago
It varies wildly sometimes within the same country like here inside America. I’ve been voting by mail my entire adult life, but a lot of people only really started to do that with the pandemic but it didn’t stick everywhere, nor was it popular everywhere. Parties used to also choose their own nominees inside private conventions, but now there’s a system of primaries and caucuses that allow a complete outsider to just register with an party and earn the nomination by working outside of the party machinery. In California there’s no guarantee you can even put forward a candidate in every election below the Presidential-level because there’s only two slots in the election that are earned through an open primary, so it’s not uncommon to have two of the same party running against each other.
odiroot 3y ago
Poland also votes on Sundays (although some referenda have been 2-day affairs). And I'm pretty much sure, it was never allowed to vote here without an ID. I'm also baffled how that is a problem in UK/US.
- tialaramex 3y ago
  For ID, two intersecting forces in the UK (and I'd imagine the US is somewhat similar but not the same) 1. Culturally not needing ID is important. That's lessening, but certainly in my age group there's a considerable amount of people who do not want to be asked for ID because it's an infringement on their liberty. 2. Vote suppression. By choosing some documents (more likely to be held by your supporters) as valid ID, and others as not (make up any excuse) you can ensure your supporters aren't turned away at the polls while other party supporters are, this effectively disenfranchises them but you can pretend it wasn't on purpose.
  - distances 3y ago
    > 2. Vote suppression. By choosing some documents (more likely to be held by your supporters) as valid ID I'd say the European assumption would be that there are one or two valid ID cards (a passport and a national identity card), and owning either one would be mandatory. Doesn't then disenfranchise anyone. It's not mandatory in all European countries though. But I think it's usually mandatory that you are able to identify yourself somehow.
    - tialaramex 3y ago
      The UK does not have a "national identity card" and attempts to introduce one were... lets say not a political triumph. The main way you might be required to identify yourself in the UK is if a Police Officer says either you are suspected of a specific crime, or you are a witness to such a crime. In both cases officers are entitled to you truthfully revealing your name and address as part of investigating the crime, but they aren't entitled to see a photo ID as you may not even own such ID. If you refuse to identify yourself in either of these cases, or the officer believes your answer was deceitful, they can arrest you (which if you were a suspect was likely going to happen anyway).
fatuna 3y ago
Very interesting indeed. Here in the Netherlands, we've had ID requirements for voting since forever. And even though we don't vote on Sundays (I think it's always a working day), our turnout rate is similar (slightly higher even) compared to Germany. I guess there's more at play here.
- aragilar 3y ago
  Here in AU, there's no ID required, and we always vote on Saturdays (though pre-poll stations are open most days of the week, and there's a bunch of other exceptions for the NT due to remoteness).
  - kalleboo 3y ago
    Although talking about Australia you're burying the lede, that you have compulsory voting. That kind of matters way more than anything else.
traceroute66 3y ago
> in the UK there is much resistance to needing an ID to vote Allow me to rephrase that for you.... The voting ID requirement was introduced as a political tactic by the present UK government. Pure and simple. Don't believe me ? Look at the ID requirements. They are blatantly centered on the age-group that is known to support the Conservative party, i.e. the elderly. For example: Oyster photo-card (RFID travel card with your name and photo on it) .... over 60 ? Yes, you may use it as voting ID. 18–59 ? No, you may not use it as voting ID.
- daveoc64 3y ago
  While I do agree that the current government's policy was designed to suppress votes (Rees Mogg basically admitted it), the different treatment of Oyster cards makes sense. The over 60 card requires that your eligibility is verified before it's issued. This includes checking your name, address, and age. The cards for younger people have no such verification process. https://fullfact.org/online/oyster-card-voter-id/ https://fullfact.org/online/oyster-card-voter-id/
  - traceroute66 3y ago
    > This includes checking your name, address, and age. But effectively they could still do that at the point of use if they wanted to! Recall, before ID was mandated, you would turn up and state your name and address which would be checked against the electoral roll by the officer. Therefore ... If someone 18–59 turns up with a photo Oyster card, you could, if you wanted to: 1. Check their face against the photo on the card 2. Check their name and date of birth on the card against the name and date of birth on the electoral roll.
secondcoming 3y ago
The UK is odd when it comes to IDs, you don't need to carry one around at all. That it's easy to live outside the system is touted as a reason why so many people try to break into the country from France. When I first voted here, as an immigrant, I took my passport to the voting station just in case someone asked. The resistance to Photo IDs for voting really boils down to 'people of colour can't afford photo ids', and claim that the whole thing is a nefarious plot to rig elections. That said, the recent New Years Eve fireworks display in London required photo ID to attend, and nobody complained.
- zabzonk 3y ago
  > The UK is odd when it comes to IDs, you don't need to carry one around at all. why should that be seen as odd, as opposed to being civilised?
  - xanderlewis 3y ago
    What's particularly civilised about it? In the current system we often have to use driving licences as 'ID' — which is especially odd considering not all of us drive. It seems obvious that having a standard form of identification would make all sorts of things easier and include the benefits mentioned above.
    - zabzonk 3y ago
      i think this is my point - i don't have a driving licence. i don't see why i should need to identify myself to anybody, or why a driving license/id card/passport even reliably does that. it is just bad methods of control from them not even competently in-charge.
- aragilar 3y ago
  I can't speak to other parts of the Commonwealth, but Australia and New Zealand also don't require photo IDs, you only really need them if you're young and want to go to age-restricted venues (e.g. bars) or buy alcohol (or similar things that have age restrictions around them). Usually you just use your drivers license, but you can also get proof of age cards (or you used to, not sure what they do now with phones, maybe there's an alternative). There have been attempts to introduce a national ID (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australia_Card https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australia_Card was the main one), but it keeps being rejected (and for a bunch of like healthcare and tax there's specific IDs for those).
DonaldFisk 3y ago
There's no British ID card, and some people have no photographic identification (passport, driving licence) or don't routinely carry any. Also, voter ID fraud very rarely happens, and is detectable when it does happen - when you vote, the ask for your name and address. Voter ID was recently introduced and now many people are turned away without being able to vote - which is far more likely to change the result of an election than ID fraud.
- bakuninsbart 3y ago
  Being Germans, the idea of someone not being able to identify themselves is inconceivable, worse even; illegal. Of course this precludes many homeless people from voting, and often from receiving other services, but order must be held in higher regards than compassion.
  - bobsmooth 3y ago
    >order must be held in higher regards than compassion This is the most German statement I have ever heard.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - KingOfCoders 3y ago
    "but order must be held in higher regards than compassion." Don't project. Having helped homeless people and seeing many people help homeless people in Germany, I don't think I have ever heard a more stereo typing comment on Hackernews. And if you're German (or somewhere else), I hope you have given to causes for the homeless, or organized something on your own, because talk is cheap.
- zabzonk 3y ago
  > Voter ID was recently introduced really, just conservative gerrymandering.
  - TechnicalVault 3y ago

mft_ 3y ago

We've found something that Germans do on Sundays? I guess there really is an exception to every rule ;)

KingOfCoders 3y ago
Most Germans do car washing on Sundays ;-)
- tleilaxu 3y ago
  Quietly, I hope…

SllX 3y ago

It varies wildly sometimes within the same country like here inside America. I’ve been voting by mail my entire adult life, but a lot of people only really started to do that with the pandemic but it didn’t stick everywhere, nor was it popular everywhere. Parties used to also choose their own nominees inside private conventions, but now there’s a system of primaries and caucuses that allow a complete outsider to just register with an party and earn the nomination by working outside of the party machinery. In California there’s no guarantee you can even put forward a candidate in every election below the Presidential-level because there’s only two slots in the election that are earned through an open primary, so it’s not uncommon to have two of the same party running against each other.

odiroot 3y ago

Poland also votes on Sundays (although some referenda have been 2-day affairs). And I'm pretty much sure, it was never allowed to vote here without an ID. I'm also baffled how that is a problem in UK/US.

tialaramex 3y ago
For ID, two intersecting forces in the UK (and I'd imagine the US is somewhat similar but not the same) 1. Culturally not needing ID is important. That's lessening, but certainly in my age group there's a considerable amount of people who do not want to be asked for ID because it's an infringement on their liberty. 2. Vote suppression. By choosing some documents (more likely to be held by your supporters) as valid ID, and others as not (make up any excuse) you can ensure your supporters aren't turned away at the polls while other party supporters are, this effectively disenfranchises them but you can pretend it wasn't on purpose.
- distances 3y ago
  > 2. Vote suppression. By choosing some documents (more likely to be held by your supporters) as valid ID I'd say the European assumption would be that there are one or two valid ID cards (a passport and a national identity card), and owning either one would be mandatory. Doesn't then disenfranchise anyone. It's not mandatory in all European countries though. But I think it's usually mandatory that you are able to identify yourself somehow.
  - tialaramex 3y ago
    The UK does not have a "national identity card" and attempts to introduce one were... lets say not a political triumph. The main way you might be required to identify yourself in the UK is if a Police Officer says either you are suspected of a specific crime, or you are a witness to such a crime. In both cases officers are entitled to you truthfully revealing your name and address as part of investigating the crime, but they aren't entitled to see a photo ID as you may not even own such ID. If you refuse to identify yourself in either of these cases, or the officer believes your answer was deceitful, they can arrest you (which if you were a suspect was likely going to happen anyway).

fatuna 3y ago

Very interesting indeed. Here in the Netherlands, we've had ID requirements for voting since forever. And even though we don't vote on Sundays (I think it's always a working day), our turnout rate is similar (slightly higher even) compared to Germany. I guess there's more at play here.

aragilar 3y ago
Here in AU, there's no ID required, and we always vote on Saturdays (though pre-poll stations are open most days of the week, and there's a bunch of other exceptions for the NT due to remoteness).
- kalleboo 3y ago
  Although talking about Australia you're burying the lede, that you have compulsory voting. That kind of matters way more than anything else.

traceroute66 3y ago

> in the UK there is much resistance to needing an ID to vote Allow me to rephrase that for you.... The voting ID requirement was introduced as a political tactic by the present UK government. Pure and simple. Don't believe me ? Look at the ID requirements. They are blatantly centered on the age-group that is known to support the Conservative party, i.e. the elderly. For example: Oyster photo-card (RFID travel card with your name and photo on it) .... over 60 ? Yes, you may use it as voting ID. 18–59 ? No, you may not use it as voting ID.

daveoc64 3y ago
While I do agree that the current government's policy was designed to suppress votes (Rees Mogg basically admitted it), the different treatment of Oyster cards makes sense. The over 60 card requires that your eligibility is verified before it's issued. This includes checking your name, address, and age. The cards for younger people have no such verification process. https://fullfact.org/online/oyster-card-voter-id/ https://fullfact.org/online/oyster-card-voter-id/
- traceroute66 3y ago
  > This includes checking your name, address, and age. But effectively they could still do that at the point of use if they wanted to! Recall, before ID was mandated, you would turn up and state your name and address which would be checked against the electoral roll by the officer. Therefore ... If someone 18–59 turns up with a photo Oyster card, you could, if you wanted to: 1. Check their face against the photo on the card 2. Check their name and date of birth on the card against the name and date of birth on the electoral roll.

secondcoming 3y ago

The UK is odd when it comes to IDs, you don't need to carry one around at all. That it's easy to live outside the system is touted as a reason why so many people try to break into the country from France. When I first voted here, as an immigrant, I took my passport to the voting station just in case someone asked. The resistance to Photo IDs for voting really boils down to 'people of colour can't afford photo ids', and claim that the whole thing is a nefarious plot to rig elections. That said, the recent New Years Eve fireworks display in London required photo ID to attend, and nobody complained.

zabzonk 3y ago
> The UK is odd when it comes to IDs, you don't need to carry one around at all. why should that be seen as odd, as opposed to being civilised?
- xanderlewis 3y ago
  What's particularly civilised about it? In the current system we often have to use driving licences as 'ID' — which is especially odd considering not all of us drive. It seems obvious that having a standard form of identification would make all sorts of things easier and include the benefits mentioned above.
  - zabzonk 3y ago
    i think this is my point - i don't have a driving licence. i don't see why i should need to identify myself to anybody, or why a driving license/id card/passport even reliably does that. it is just bad methods of control from them not even competently in-charge.
aragilar 3y ago
I can't speak to other parts of the Commonwealth, but Australia and New Zealand also don't require photo IDs, you only really need them if you're young and want to go to age-restricted venues (e.g. bars) or buy alcohol (or similar things that have age restrictions around them). Usually you just use your drivers license, but you can also get proof of age cards (or you used to, not sure what they do now with phones, maybe there's an alternative). There have been attempts to introduce a national ID (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australia_Card https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australia_Card was the main one), but it keeps being rejected (and for a bunch of like healthcare and tax there's specific IDs for those).

DonaldFisk 3y ago

There's no British ID card, and some people have no photographic identification (passport, driving licence) or don't routinely carry any. Also, voter ID fraud very rarely happens, and is detectable when it does happen - when you vote, the ask for your name and address. Voter ID was recently introduced and now many people are turned away without being able to vote - which is far more likely to change the result of an election than ID fraud.

bakuninsbart 3y ago
Being Germans, the idea of someone not being able to identify themselves is inconceivable, worse even; illegal. Of course this precludes many homeless people from voting, and often from receiving other services, but order must be held in higher regards than compassion.
- bobsmooth 3y ago
  >order must be held in higher regards than compassion This is the most German statement I have ever heard.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- KingOfCoders 3y ago
  "but order must be held in higher regards than compassion." Don't project. Having helped homeless people and seeing many people help homeless people in Germany, I don't think I have ever heard a more stereo typing comment on Hackernews. And if you're German (or somewhere else), I hope you have given to causes for the homeless, or organized something on your own, because talk is cheap.
zabzonk 3y ago
> Voter ID was recently introduced really, just conservative gerrymandering.
- TechnicalVault 3y ago