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> Aka all women, and most men. Projecting a lot here, it’s definitely not true. Not a single woman that I know is on tinder is saying that it’s for a long term

> Aka all women, and most men. Projecting a lot here, it’s definitely not true. Not a single woman that I know is on tinder is saying that it’s for a long term relationship

lazide 3y ago
Then they’ve either broken free from societal conditioning, or society has given up - or you’re not someone they’re worried is ‘in charge’. Would they say the same to their parents? A random cop? Co-workers?
- williamdclt 3y ago
  I wouldn’t as so far as to say “broken free from societal conditioning” (don’t think anyone can claim that), but that was sort of my point: society is not a uniform hivemind, there’s many different overlapping subgroups and subcultures sharing different values and encouraging different behaviours. Not all of them shame not looking for long term relationships and it’s not about “society giving up”, it’s different values (I’m not talking about a niche subculture here, this is really not uncommon, eg some coworkers) > Would they say the same to their parents I get your point, it’s true people tend to get more conservative around parents (who don’t necessarily share the same values as their kids), but even then: for _some_ of these people, yes they do say the same to their parents. It’s really nothing groundbreaking: people build social circles with other people sharing their values, so stigma related to these values is lesser within these circles
  - lazide 3y ago
    Society needs kids (replacement rate at a minimum, growth preferred!), workers to do jobs, education of its members, competitive economic activity (growth preferred!), etc. If done effectively, these are also opportunities to get significant dividends from society to offset our own needs and flaws. Shame is the emotion used to tell folks ‘this will get you in trouble with the group around you that you need’ - if done appropriately, it’s protective of negative consequences. One of the biggest issues with growing up is figuring out which of the emotional responses we’ve been trained into (or experience) is helping us or not, or adaptive/maladaptive or not. Aka if you would not knock an old lady over and steal her purse, because you’d be ashamed to do it, that means you learned or were taught shame appropriately. And can feel it appropriately. Because, if society was doing its job, you’d end up in jail or beaten up if you did that, and would lose out on good jobs, good mates, income you need, etc. as a consequence. If you would not ask for help from someone who could provide it if you needed it for the same reason, then that is probably inappropriate and maladaptive. Or if you could not, say, get a job you needed for the same reason. For women, they have a limited window where they can reproduce without a lot of risk, pain, suffering, etc (or when it’s just impossible). No one wants to think about it, but it absolutely exists and it sucks if it gets ignored - been there, done that, I can tell you many horror stories. If you’ve dated any women in their late 20’s to mid 30’s, it’s nearly impossible to miss. If they are successful in doing so AND in raising a child well, that will pay large social dividends for them for the rest of their life. If they don’t, society will marginalize them (even if they say they won’t) and they’ll end up in some very socially undesirable situations eventually. It isn’t the end all be all of course. Similar to men and learning skills like building wealth, getting/being healthy and strong, being courageous, approaching women, etc. Also not the end all be all. But also important. A society which doesn’t incentivize the behavior it needs for itself or its members has ‘given up’, same with parents. Or lost the plot. A social group which encourages its members to do things which don’t help them, is enabling things which don’t help them. Or doesn’t know what would actually help them. Which, hey, nobody and nothing is perfect. And vices exist because they help prop something else up, and they’re often necessary. But pretending a Casino is a bank is still BS, even if sometimes people walk out with more money then they walked in with. Being unashamed of going to the casino everyday is… indicative of having broken social conditioning, if society is functional, and probably not good for the individual either long term. And yes, none of this is groundbreaking at all. Quite unpopular though, to say it all near as I can tell.
- winter_blue 3y ago
  They probably will freely admit to their close non-judgemental female friends that they’re only on Tinder for hooking up / having sex with hot guys (aka Chads). > Would they say the same to their parents? A random cop? Co-workers? Most women would not say this openly, since there’s a lot of judgement about this. But their actual behavior paints a very different picture / story. Millions of modern educated women seem to be engaging in casual sex with a relatively small number of highly-attractive-looking hyper-sexual men (who probably sleep with someone every night “spinning plates” so to speak). Meanwhile, millions of other men are relegated to being involuntarily celibate. We’re talking men who are software engineers in the Bay Area who are earning circa $300k with interesting passions and hobbies but can’t find a single woman, due to monopolization of “sexually liberated” women by so-called Chad men (who have virtual harems as a result) and the consequent smaller dating pool of women.
  - verall 3y ago
    I can't tell if you're like an archeologist of incel culture or a card-carrying member. If someone makes $300k/yr and can't find a date they have other issues and/or need to move out of the bay.
    - winter_blue 3y ago
      First off, it’s pretty easy to make $300k as a software engineer in the Bay Area. You just have to good. You don’t have to be amazing or excellent. Even an L5 SWE at Google earns well above that. Second, yes, there certainly are many men who are struggling. I even know a CTO of a startup that has gone through YC, raised over a million in funding, who’s in his mid 30s, and he still has his V card. Then there men who are pretty low income who do odd jobs like wait tables, but are good looking, and they pretty much get laid like it’s raining women (just for them, to be clear). I personally know a guy like that, and he’s dating multiple women simultaneously, and these women literally pay for his dinners and other things. These include a woman who’s a product manager making good money, a woman who’s got a bootstrapped startup with an ARR of over half a million USD a year, etc. He’s not officially in a relationship with any of them, but in informal situationships (and they’re not aware he’s dating other women either), and he rotates between them through the course of the week. If you’ve ever seen a graph distribution of likes on dating apps, you’lll know what I’m talking about. About 80% of men get very little attention, whereas the top 20% and especially the top 5% live like one of the Sultans of the Ottoman Empire, with women ready to deliver themselves to their door for intimacy. It’s some pretty insane, dark, and depressing stuff to think about. A lot of these men would make good fathers and good husbands. They also earn high incomes, so they would be able to provide an upper middle class life for their family if they had one as well. But the so-called “Chad cock carousel” has taken such a sheer number of women out of marriage and dating market, that millions of amazing men are left single, sexless, and unable to marry, and have children and start a family, etc. This stuff cuts across racial boundaries, although non-white seem to have it extremely hard. Not that white guys have it easy. I also know a white/WASPy software engineer who’s a nerdy gamer guy (with his ancestors having moved to North America in the 1600s) and he struggled a lot with dating and women as well, but he eventually got married to a Chinese-American woman, and has had kids with them, and I can attest that he’s a great father. These are the sorts of high quality men that many of these sexually-liberated women claim they want, but then in the real dating market, we see a situation play out where where a small number of good-looking (“Chad”) men (many who are low income or professionally-unsuccessful) end up having harems of 3 to 5 women, hence massively shrinking the number of women available. Why would women do this, rather that have a deep loving relationship with a man who can give her 100% of himself to her (and build a family with that guy)? I have no idea. It certainly isn’t a good thing. We see the results manifest in a massive drop in the fertility rate, a massive increase in the number of men who are single, sexless celibate (but who would want to start a family and have a loving marriage with a woman, and who likely would like be good fathers as well). Many incels just want a wife. They don’t want to sleep with double digit women or anything. Many of these men would be happy with 1 single woman who loves them to commit to living their life with, and building a family with them. But then you’ve got millions of these women who priories the dopamine or serotonin (or oxytocin or whatever) hit of sleeping with various Chads, and the end result is the breakdown of families, and the future of civil society. It’s a sad state of affairs. That’s all I can say.
Spooky23 3y ago
Nobody goes to a bar intending to find a spouse. Yet, millions have. People click, and the process of the clicking is irrational. My late wife and I met on Yahoo Personals, with the explicit intention of a short term thing. We were both planning to move. We were together for 23 years, married for 20. End of the day, you go where the people are.
- lazide 3y ago
  And where you go tends to define the people that are there. What do you say your relative odds are of finding someone who isn’t a drinker at a bar? Non-zero for sure. Also, not super likely as compared to a park or supermarket, eh? So if you were going to find someone who wasn’t a big drinker (it mattered to you), hanging out at the bar all the time might eventually work out - but would be a pretty round about way of doing it, eh?
  - Spooky23 3y ago
    True! In the case of my parents, my mom was drawn to this upper east side bar with her colleagues for the happy hour that promised free burgers for nurses. She remains a thrifty gal to this day.

> Aka all women, and most men. Projecting a lot here, it’s definitely not true. Not a single woman that I know is on tinder is saying that it’s for a long term relationship

lazide 3y ago

Then they’ve either broken free from societal conditioning, or society has given up - or you’re not someone they’re worried is ‘in charge’. Would they say the same to their parents? A random cop? Co-workers?

williamdclt 3y ago
I wouldn’t as so far as to say “broken free from societal conditioning” (don’t think anyone can claim that), but that was sort of my point: society is not a uniform hivemind, there’s many different overlapping subgroups and subcultures sharing different values and encouraging different behaviours. Not all of them shame not looking for long term relationships and it’s not about “society giving up”, it’s different values (I’m not talking about a niche subculture here, this is really not uncommon, eg some coworkers) > Would they say the same to their parents I get your point, it’s true people tend to get more conservative around parents (who don’t necessarily share the same values as their kids), but even then: for _some_ of these people, yes they do say the same to their parents. It’s really nothing groundbreaking: people build social circles with other people sharing their values, so stigma related to these values is lesser within these circles
- lazide 3y ago
  Society needs kids (replacement rate at a minimum, growth preferred!), workers to do jobs, education of its members, competitive economic activity (growth preferred!), etc. If done effectively, these are also opportunities to get significant dividends from society to offset our own needs and flaws. Shame is the emotion used to tell folks ‘this will get you in trouble with the group around you that you need’ - if done appropriately, it’s protective of negative consequences. One of the biggest issues with growing up is figuring out which of the emotional responses we’ve been trained into (or experience) is helping us or not, or adaptive/maladaptive or not. Aka if you would not knock an old lady over and steal her purse, because you’d be ashamed to do it, that means you learned or were taught shame appropriately. And can feel it appropriately. Because, if society was doing its job, you’d end up in jail or beaten up if you did that, and would lose out on good jobs, good mates, income you need, etc. as a consequence. If you would not ask for help from someone who could provide it if you needed it for the same reason, then that is probably inappropriate and maladaptive. Or if you could not, say, get a job you needed for the same reason. For women, they have a limited window where they can reproduce without a lot of risk, pain, suffering, etc (or when it’s just impossible). No one wants to think about it, but it absolutely exists and it sucks if it gets ignored - been there, done that, I can tell you many horror stories. If you’ve dated any women in their late 20’s to mid 30’s, it’s nearly impossible to miss. If they are successful in doing so AND in raising a child well, that will pay large social dividends for them for the rest of their life. If they don’t, society will marginalize them (even if they say they won’t) and they’ll end up in some very socially undesirable situations eventually. It isn’t the end all be all of course. Similar to men and learning skills like building wealth, getting/being healthy and strong, being courageous, approaching women, etc. Also not the end all be all. But also important. A society which doesn’t incentivize the behavior it needs for itself or its members has ‘given up’, same with parents. Or lost the plot. A social group which encourages its members to do things which don’t help them, is enabling things which don’t help them. Or doesn’t know what would actually help them. Which, hey, nobody and nothing is perfect. And vices exist because they help prop something else up, and they’re often necessary. But pretending a Casino is a bank is still BS, even if sometimes people walk out with more money then they walked in with. Being unashamed of going to the casino everyday is… indicative of having broken social conditioning, if society is functional, and probably not good for the individual either long term. And yes, none of this is groundbreaking at all. Quite unpopular though, to say it all near as I can tell.
winter_blue 3y ago
They probably will freely admit to their close non-judgemental female friends that they’re only on Tinder for hooking up / having sex with hot guys (aka Chads). > Would they say the same to their parents? A random cop? Co-workers? Most women would not say this openly, since there’s a lot of judgement about this. But their actual behavior paints a very different picture / story. Millions of modern educated women seem to be engaging in casual sex with a relatively small number of highly-attractive-looking hyper-sexual men (who probably sleep with someone every night “spinning plates” so to speak). Meanwhile, millions of other men are relegated to being involuntarily celibate. We’re talking men who are software engineers in the Bay Area who are earning circa $300k with interesting passions and hobbies but can’t find a single woman, due to monopolization of “sexually liberated” women by so-called Chad men (who have virtual harems as a result) and the consequent smaller dating pool of women.
- verall 3y ago
  I can't tell if you're like an archeologist of incel culture or a card-carrying member. If someone makes $300k/yr and can't find a date they have other issues and/or need to move out of the bay.
  - winter_blue 3y ago
    First off, it’s pretty easy to make $300k as a software engineer in the Bay Area. You just have to good. You don’t have to be amazing or excellent. Even an L5 SWE at Google earns well above that. Second, yes, there certainly are many men who are struggling. I even know a CTO of a startup that has gone through YC, raised over a million in funding, who’s in his mid 30s, and he still has his V card. Then there men who are pretty low income who do odd jobs like wait tables, but are good looking, and they pretty much get laid like it’s raining women (just for them, to be clear). I personally know a guy like that, and he’s dating multiple women simultaneously, and these women literally pay for his dinners and other things. These include a woman who’s a product manager making good money, a woman who’s got a bootstrapped startup with an ARR of over half a million USD a year, etc. He’s not officially in a relationship with any of them, but in informal situationships (and they’re not aware he’s dating other women either), and he rotates between them through the course of the week. If you’ve ever seen a graph distribution of likes on dating apps, you’lll know what I’m talking about. About 80% of men get very little attention, whereas the top 20% and especially the top 5% live like one of the Sultans of the Ottoman Empire, with women ready to deliver themselves to their door for intimacy. It’s some pretty insane, dark, and depressing stuff to think about. A lot of these men would make good fathers and good husbands. They also earn high incomes, so they would be able to provide an upper middle class life for their family if they had one as well. But the so-called “Chad cock carousel” has taken such a sheer number of women out of marriage and dating market, that millions of amazing men are left single, sexless, and unable to marry, and have children and start a family, etc. This stuff cuts across racial boundaries, although non-white seem to have it extremely hard. Not that white guys have it easy. I also know a white/WASPy software engineer who’s a nerdy gamer guy (with his ancestors having moved to North America in the 1600s) and he struggled a lot with dating and women as well, but he eventually got married to a Chinese-American woman, and has had kids with them, and I can attest that he’s a great father. These are the sorts of high quality men that many of these sexually-liberated women claim they want, but then in the real dating market, we see a situation play out where where a small number of good-looking (“Chad”) men (many who are low income or professionally-unsuccessful) end up having harems of 3 to 5 women, hence massively shrinking the number of women available. Why would women do this, rather that have a deep loving relationship with a man who can give her 100% of himself to her (and build a family with that guy)? I have no idea. It certainly isn’t a good thing. We see the results manifest in a massive drop in the fertility rate, a massive increase in the number of men who are single, sexless celibate (but who would want to start a family and have a loving marriage with a woman, and who likely would like be good fathers as well). Many incels just want a wife. They don’t want to sleep with double digit women or anything. Many of these men would be happy with 1 single woman who loves them to commit to living their life with, and building a family with them. But then you’ve got millions of these women who priories the dopamine or serotonin (or oxytocin or whatever) hit of sleeping with various Chads, and the end result is the breakdown of families, and the future of civil society. It’s a sad state of affairs. That’s all I can say.

Spooky23 3y ago

Nobody goes to a bar intending to find a spouse. Yet, millions have. People click, and the process of the clicking is irrational. My late wife and I met on Yahoo Personals, with the explicit intention of a short term thing. We were both planning to move. We were together for 23 years, married for 20. End of the day, you go where the people are.

lazide 3y ago
And where you go tends to define the people that are there. What do you say your relative odds are of finding someone who isn’t a drinker at a bar? Non-zero for sure. Also, not super likely as compared to a park or supermarket, eh? So if you were going to find someone who wasn’t a big drinker (it mattered to you), hanging out at the bar all the time might eventually work out - but would be a pretty round about way of doing it, eh?
- Spooky23 3y ago
  True! In the case of my parents, my mom was drawn to this upper east side bar with her colleagues for the happy hour that promised free burgers for nurses. She remains a thrifty gal to this day.