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European here. What kind of legal structure is tribe in this context? > “We, as the Ute Mountain Ute tribe, had been a fossil fuel tribe with oil and gas for a

by Aachen 3y ago

European here. What kind of legal structure is tribe in this context? > “We, as the Ute Mountain Ute tribe, had been a fossil fuel tribe with oil and gas for a long time, probably over 50 years. Today, with the changes in legislation, global warming, and climate change, you can see the impact of what's happening to our world. I think I only ever heard tribe used to describe a group or maybe 10-30 hunter-gatherers, or perhaps the descendants of such a group, but this is clearly not that. It sounds more like it might be a municipality with jurisdiction over some city+-sized plot of land? Or is it like a church type of structure where anyone in the area can sign up to be a member? Or something completely different? I've tried looking up tribe but the definition I get is this > A unit of sociopolitical organization consisting of a number of families, clans, or other groups who share a common ancestry and culture and among whom leadership is typically neither formalized nor permanent. That doesn't sound like the type of structure to have a billion USD to invest. There's three definitions given but none of them fit the context here

yCombLinks 3y ago
Native American groups were pushed onto reservations in the 1800s. They have political autonomy. The groups are called tribes.
stenius 3y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ute_people#Reservations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ute_people#Reservations
wizerdrobe 3y ago
They tend to work in a capacity similar to a US State, e.g. Utah itself but there is a lot of variation and nuance from tribe to tribe and state to state. You will run into confusing situations where a county law enforcement official might patrol on a reservation because there is overlap or nebulous boundaries with the blessing (cross deputizarion) from the tribal law enforcement. However some tribes defer more of their governance to a Federal Bureau of Indian Affairs. For a largely autonomous example, the Cherokee in North Carolina are interesting. Largely funded by their casinos and now marijuana which is legal on their reservation but not the encompassing state of North Carolina. They have fairly strict rules around membership, such that a Cherokee that was shipped off to Oklahoma is not eligible for membership. Land ownership is based on tribal membership, not quite following standard American rules. It’s a fun deep dive to read up on their system.
tired-turtle 3y ago
Within the context of the US, tribe can refer to a specific group of Native Americans. Group size is irrelevant, e.g. the Navajo Nation has the largest reservation and 165k members. Each tribe is free to determine its own legal structure, as it is a separate polity (a sovereign nation) from the US -- sort of. US federal law still applies on federal reservations. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_Americans_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_Americans_in_the_United...
CogitoCogito 3y ago
Does it matter if this group of people refers to itself as a “tribe” or a “nation” or something else? If they started referring to themselves as a “nation” for example, would anything change. In any case, it’s quite common in the US for groups like this to be referred to as a “tribe”. I guess today you’re one of the lucky 10,000.
- solardev 3y ago
  Some tribes were able to secure federal recognition, which grants them a more official diplomatic relationship in regards to their dealings with the federal and state governments of the United States: https://www.bia.gov/faqs/what-federally-recognized-tribe https://www.bia.gov/faqs/what-federally-recognized-tribe > Because the Constitution vested the Legislative Branch with plenary power over Indian Affairs, states have no authority over tribal governments unless expressly authorized by Congress. While federally recognized tribes generally are not subordinate to states, they can have a government-to-government relationship with these other sovereigns, as well. > Furthermore, federally recognized tribes possess both the right and the authority to regulate activities on their lands independently from state government control. They can enact and enforce stricter or more lenient laws and regulations than those of the surrounding or neighboring state(s) wherein they are located. Yet, tribes frequently collaborate and cooperate with states through compacts or other agreements on matters of mutual concern such as environmental protection and law enforcement. From https://www.bia.gov/frequently-asked-questions https://www.bia.gov/frequently-asked-questions Unfortunately, this is just a continuation of the numerous betrayals the US and military units have inflicted on them for the past centuries. Our government and soldiers routinely violated the treaties we signed and forcibly relocated and murdered many people. Many tribes did not retain their federal recognition and just kinda exist in a no-man's land between states and the federal government, lacking much of the autonomy of the federally recognized tribes.
  - CogitoCogito 3y ago
    This doesn’t actually contradict anything I said (maybe you never intended to contradict me?). But yes you are in fact correct.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
argc 3y ago
In this context Tribe is a federally recognized sovereign yet dependent nation. They have the ability to govern themselves but are still subject to federal law, but while on reservations they not subject to state law, only federal and tribal law. It's complicated.
solardev 3y ago
In the US, this is a general term for descendants of Native American peoples. Their degree of sovereignty unfortunately varies; some tribes are "federally recognized" and enjoy state-like recognition of their autonomy by the federal (central) government, while others have to bargain with the states surrounding their territories. More info here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tribe_(Native_American) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tribe_(Native_American) And a FAQ: https://www.bia.gov/frequently-asked-questions https://www.bia.gov/frequently-asked-questions The land they directly control can be anywhere from tiny to gigantic, depending on the particulars: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ef/Indian_Lands_of_Federally_Recognized_Tribes_of_the_US%2C_June_2016.pdf https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ef/Indian_L... Many people also live in surrounding areas: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Indian_reservations_in_the_United_States#/media/File:Indigenous_Americans_by_county.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Indian_reservations_in... Much of the time the tribes have their own small governments, similar to municipal services, but also often with their own equivalents to "courts", "police", etc., who may utilize different corrective measures than the US ones. Often they will have an agreement with surrounding law enforcement (or the federal government) to partner up on certain categories of infractions, such as traffic violations or murders. Some tribes have some money thanks to casinos and other business activities, but most are unfortunately quite poor, and many of their communities must work very hard to survive. (This all is just my layman's understanding. I am not Native American, but I've lived near their communities. Please correct me if I'm wrong!) --------- Edit: The 2023 movie Killers of the Flower Moon is really worth watching: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killers_of_the_Flower_Moon_(film) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killers_of_the_Flower_Moon_(fi...
- Aachen 3y ago
  Thanks for the insight! I had no idea some enjoyed so much autonomy, or that something other than the democratically elected government arranged for courts to exist in some regions. If I ever visit the USA, this sounds like they'll be some of the culturally most interesting places to include in the trip. Odd that I had never heard of this before. (That native Americans exist, sure, and the word reservation I've heard as well but that honestly sounds more like zoo than like state. Probably I should have looked into what this means sooner!)
ddhhyy 3y ago
> A Native American tribe recognized by the United States government possesses tribal sovereignty, a "dependent sovereign nation" status with the Federal Government that is similar to that of a state in some situations, and that of a nation in others, holding a government-to-government relationship with the Federal government of the United States. The Ute Mountain Ute Tribe referenced in the article is one such Federally recognized tribe. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tribe_(Native_American) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tribe_(Native_American) https://www.bia.gov/service/tribal-leaders-directory https://www.bia.gov/service/tribal-leaders-directory
loeg 3y ago
Recognized tribes in the US are their own legal entities, with similar theoretically legal status to US states. You're right that it seems unlikely they have $1B lying around to invest. I expect they'll need to finance the project in some way.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
OfficeChad 3y ago
[dead]
nerdponx 3y ago
In this case I think the word "tribe" is referring to the Ute Mountain sub-group of the Ute people. But it's certainly nothing like the primitive society you are imagining, and that's partly why I think a lot of American Indian nations don't use that word to describe themselves. For example, the "Seneca tribe" calls themselves the Seneca Nation. That is, they were and are a group of people sharing common ethnicity, culture, language, and some kind of governmental organization across their territory, which at one point covered a large portion of what is now western New York state. They lived in towns with palisade walls and farmed several crops. They interacted with other nations in a complicated geopolitical system involving trade, alliance, and war. It's a far cry from the image of dumb savages in crude huts. In the USA today, American Indian nations are essentially sovereign nations, and have some of their own territory in areas called reservations. So that's what we are talking about here: the actions of a sovereign nation, with its own government and geographical territory.
- Aachen 3y ago
  > For example, the "Seneca tribe" calls themselves the Seneca Nation. That sounds a lot more accurate given the explanation (also from other comments) where they have their own courts and everything. Odd that the words reservation and tribe are still in use like this. (And perhaps I should clarify: I didn't mean to imply that these people (evidently having a billion to invest in solar) are living in huts or otherwise are like the historic hunter-gatherer societies I mentioned. The word evoced that image for me, but of course I realise that this cannot be accurate, hence the confusion.)
IncreasePosts 3y ago
They could be raising the money from outside bankers or investors. Commonly, you can get away with stuff on tribal ground that you could not get away with in the surrounding area, since the tribal ground doesn't follow the state laws of the surrounding state.
snickerbockers 3y ago
A) They're native americans. In the US Native Americans are often referred to as "tribes", "nations" or "reservations". B) its more like what would be referred to as a "semi autonomous region" in other countries. They have their own governments, police forces, etc. C) they probably secured some sort of outside investments, these native american reservations are by no means unsophisticated. Other reservations have been able to bring in revenue by using their autonomy to establish casinos and resorts on their lands, even in states where that would be illegal outside of the reservations (because the reservation's autonomy means that they aren't necessarily bound by the laws of whatever state they are in).

by Aachen 3y ago

yCombLinks 3y ago

Native American groups were pushed onto reservations in the 1800s. They have political autonomy. The groups are called tribes.

stenius 3y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ute_people#Reservations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ute_people#Reservations

wizerdrobe 3y ago

They tend to work in a capacity similar to a US State, e.g. Utah itself but there is a lot of variation and nuance from tribe to tribe and state to state. You will run into confusing situations where a county law enforcement official might patrol on a reservation because there is overlap or nebulous boundaries with the blessing (cross deputizarion) from the tribal law enforcement. However some tribes defer more of their governance to a Federal Bureau of Indian Affairs. For a largely autonomous example, the Cherokee in North Carolina are interesting. Largely funded by their casinos and now marijuana which is legal on their reservation but not the encompassing state of North Carolina. They have fairly strict rules around membership, such that a Cherokee that was shipped off to Oklahoma is not eligible for membership. Land ownership is based on tribal membership, not quite following standard American rules. It’s a fun deep dive to read up on their system.

tired-turtle 3y ago

Within the context of the US, tribe can refer to a specific group of Native Americans. Group size is irrelevant, e.g. the Navajo Nation has the largest reservation and 165k members. Each tribe is free to determine its own legal structure, as it is a separate polity (a sovereign nation) from the US -- sort of. US federal law still applies on federal reservations. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_Americans_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_Americans_in_the_United...

CogitoCogito 3y ago

Does it matter if this group of people refers to itself as a “tribe” or a “nation” or something else? If they started referring to themselves as a “nation” for example, would anything change. In any case, it’s quite common in the US for groups like this to be referred to as a “tribe”. I guess today you’re one of the lucky 10,000.

solardev 3y ago
Some tribes were able to secure federal recognition, which grants them a more official diplomatic relationship in regards to their dealings with the federal and state governments of the United States: https://www.bia.gov/faqs/what-federally-recognized-tribe https://www.bia.gov/faqs/what-federally-recognized-tribe > Because the Constitution vested the Legislative Branch with plenary power over Indian Affairs, states have no authority over tribal governments unless expressly authorized by Congress. While federally recognized tribes generally are not subordinate to states, they can have a government-to-government relationship with these other sovereigns, as well. > Furthermore, federally recognized tribes possess both the right and the authority to regulate activities on their lands independently from state government control. They can enact and enforce stricter or more lenient laws and regulations than those of the surrounding or neighboring state(s) wherein they are located. Yet, tribes frequently collaborate and cooperate with states through compacts or other agreements on matters of mutual concern such as environmental protection and law enforcement. From https://www.bia.gov/frequently-asked-questions https://www.bia.gov/frequently-asked-questions Unfortunately, this is just a continuation of the numerous betrayals the US and military units have inflicted on them for the past centuries. Our government and soldiers routinely violated the treaties we signed and forcibly relocated and murdered many people. Many tribes did not retain their federal recognition and just kinda exist in a no-man's land between states and the federal government, lacking much of the autonomy of the federally recognized tribes.
- CogitoCogito 3y ago
  This doesn’t actually contradict anything I said (maybe you never intended to contradict me?). But yes you are in fact correct.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

argc 3y ago

In this context Tribe is a federally recognized sovereign yet dependent nation. They have the ability to govern themselves but are still subject to federal law, but while on reservations they not subject to state law, only federal and tribal law. It's complicated.

solardev 3y ago

In the US, this is a general term for descendants of Native American peoples. Their degree of sovereignty unfortunately varies; some tribes are "federally recognized" and enjoy state-like recognition of their autonomy by the federal (central) government, while others have to bargain with the states surrounding their territories. More info here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tribe_(Native_American) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tribe_(Native_American) And a FAQ: https://www.bia.gov/frequently-asked-questions https://www.bia.gov/frequently-asked-questions The land they directly control can be anywhere from tiny to gigantic, depending on the particulars: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ef/Indian_Lands_of_Federally_Recognized_Tribes_of_the_US%2C_June_2016.pdf https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ef/Indian_L... Many people also live in surrounding areas: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Indian_reservations_in_the_United_States#/media/File:Indigenous_Americans_by_county.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Indian_reservations_in... Much of the time the tribes have their own small governments, similar to municipal services, but also often with their own equivalents to "courts", "police", etc., who may utilize different corrective measures than the US ones. Often they will have an agreement with surrounding law enforcement (or the federal government) to partner up on certain categories of infractions, such as traffic violations or murders. Some tribes have some money thanks to casinos and other business activities, but most are unfortunately quite poor, and many of their communities must work very hard to survive. (This all is just my layman's understanding. I am not Native American, but I've lived near their communities. Please correct me if I'm wrong!) --------- Edit: The 2023 movie Killers of the Flower Moon is really worth watching: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killers_of_the_Flower_Moon_(film) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killers_of_the_Flower_Moon_(fi...

Aachen 3y ago
Thanks for the insight! I had no idea some enjoyed so much autonomy, or that something other than the democratically elected government arranged for courts to exist in some regions. If I ever visit the USA, this sounds like they'll be some of the culturally most interesting places to include in the trip. Odd that I had never heard of this before. (That native Americans exist, sure, and the word reservation I've heard as well but that honestly sounds more like zoo than like state. Probably I should have looked into what this means sooner!)

ddhhyy 3y ago

> A Native American tribe recognized by the United States government possesses tribal sovereignty, a "dependent sovereign nation" status with the Federal Government that is similar to that of a state in some situations, and that of a nation in others, holding a government-to-government relationship with the Federal government of the United States. The Ute Mountain Ute Tribe referenced in the article is one such Federally recognized tribe. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tribe_(Native_American) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tribe_(Native_American) https://www.bia.gov/service/tribal-leaders-directory https://www.bia.gov/service/tribal-leaders-directory

loeg 3y ago

Recognized tribes in the US are their own legal entities, with similar theoretically legal status to US states. You're right that it seems unlikely they have $1B lying around to invest. I expect they'll need to finance the project in some way.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

OfficeChad 3y ago

[dead]

nerdponx 3y ago

In this case I think the word "tribe" is referring to the Ute Mountain sub-group of the Ute people. But it's certainly nothing like the primitive society you are imagining, and that's partly why I think a lot of American Indian nations don't use that word to describe themselves. For example, the "Seneca tribe" calls themselves the Seneca Nation. That is, they were and are a group of people sharing common ethnicity, culture, language, and some kind of governmental organization across their territory, which at one point covered a large portion of what is now western New York state. They lived in towns with palisade walls and farmed several crops. They interacted with other nations in a complicated geopolitical system involving trade, alliance, and war. It's a far cry from the image of dumb savages in crude huts. In the USA today, American Indian nations are essentially sovereign nations, and have some of their own territory in areas called reservations. So that's what we are talking about here: the actions of a sovereign nation, with its own government and geographical territory.

Aachen 3y ago
> For example, the "Seneca tribe" calls themselves the Seneca Nation. That sounds a lot more accurate given the explanation (also from other comments) where they have their own courts and everything. Odd that the words reservation and tribe are still in use like this. (And perhaps I should clarify: I didn't mean to imply that these people (evidently having a billion to invest in solar) are living in huts or otherwise are like the historic hunter-gatherer societies I mentioned. The word evoced that image for me, but of course I realise that this cannot be accurate, hence the confusion.)

IncreasePosts 3y ago

They could be raising the money from outside bankers or investors. Commonly, you can get away with stuff on tribal ground that you could not get away with in the surrounding area, since the tribal ground doesn't follow the state laws of the surrounding state.

snickerbockers 3y ago

A) They're native americans. In the US Native Americans are often referred to as "tribes", "nations" or "reservations". B) its more like what would be referred to as a "semi autonomous region" in other countries. They have their own governments, police forces, etc. C) they probably secured some sort of outside investments, these native american reservations are by no means unsophisticated. Other reservations have been able to bring in revenue by using their autonomy to establish casinos and resorts on their lands, even in states where that would be illegal outside of the reservations (because the reservation's autonomy means that they aren't necessarily bound by the laws of whatever state they are in).