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Everyone thinks that Apple really cares if you use PWAs? It came out in the Epic trial that 90% of the App Store revenue comes from pay to win games and in ap

Everyone thinks that Apple really cares if you use PWAs? It came out in the Epic trial that 90% of the App Store revenue comes from pay to win games and in app purchases of loot boxes and coins. Those apps aren’t going to be PWAs. If it’s only mean old Apple keeping the great world of cross platform apps using web technologies, why aren’t PWAs more popular on Android?

lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 3y ago
> Those apps aren’t going to be PWAs. Except when a manager learns that they can keep Apple’s 30% if they release a PWA instead. They don’t even need to know what a PWA is, they just ask the developer if it’s possible, who says “something something WebGL and web sockets?” The manager thinks it’s a great idea. Whether that translates to their users migrating to the new implementation could be up in the air. I suspect Apple will lose some revenue, at any rate, and they’re likely thinking similarly.
- scarface_74 3y ago
  So you really think that none of these game developers or their management never heard about PWAs and if they thought they could avoid the 30% fee on Android by creating one without any loss in usage they wouldn’t do it?
szasamasa 3y ago
if apple did not care, they would not have crippled web capabilities in the last 10+ years and they would just let chromium/gecko based browsers make use of web standards web apps are the future that may take as much as 90%+ of the 100B app store revenue web apps will succeed once good programmers and companies make strategic decisions to build good web apps crippling web apps on one important major platform like iOS stalls these strategic decisions since it is not easy to tell your programmers that now you learn js and web technologies if you still need those native apps in addition, most companies have already published native apps, web apps will start to gain success after apple is forced to let them work with feature parity on iOS etc. AND 3-5-10 years pass since rather new companies choose web apps get back to your observation of "popularity" after apple is forced from governments and competition authorities to support web apps on iOS (just like on macOS or every other OS does) plus 5 years!
- scarface_74 3y ago
  Where are all of the great PWAs for Android and why are the same companies making apps for iOS also making native apps for Android?
  - szasamasa 3y ago
    maybe there are still no great web apps because Apple is still crippling web capabilities on a major platform and the status quo is still hiring mobile app developers because not technical managers copy each other to stay safe and users are used to native apps nobody said that you have to allow possible great standalone UX on major platforms like iOS because tons of managers made the mistake to invest in web strategy because they trusted Apple to be nice and hence they have these great products already first step is open all major platforms so that managers and developers see the web as a potential alternative to native app stores, then we will see much more great web apps in 1-2-3-5-10 years... I think microsoft made outlook a web app to have one code base, it is a very big step that capital strong companies make first because it is reimplementing same functionality first... we want great web apps in the future, the web capabilities are already there, we need investment and good app programmers instead of web designers to see great web apps that build on the great web capabilities the web capabilities are already there, you should study them... the great web apps not yet because Apple has been crippling them for over 10 years now and they have sole power over one of the major platforms
mmcnl 3y ago
90% _today_. Strategic chess moves like this are about the next decade. The web is becoming more and more powerful and who says Fortnite can't run in a browser in 5 years? Especially if EU forces Apple to allow alternative browser engines that Apple can't control. It's an existential threat to the App Store model.
- scarface_74 3y ago
  And what is stopping Epic from using a PWA today on Android of its just Apple holding them back?
  - mmcnl 3y ago
    No idea, but as I said it's about the next decade, not today.
    - JustExAWS 3y ago
      Is the mass adoption of PWAs on mobile - including Android where Chrome is suppose to be so much better - like the “year of Linux on the desktop”? (and the HN gods don’t like me now for some unknown reason)
      - mmcnl 3y ago
        No, I don't think so, for the end user it doesn't matter a lot (though increased competition will be of benefit for the end user obviously). But what matters is that Apple can't be a gatekeeper for PWAs and so they can't charge their 30% App Store tax. So it matters a lot for developers. That's why it's a threat to the App Store model.
        scarface_74 3y ago
        You still didn’t answer the question - if it means so much for developers, why not use PWAs on Android today?
themacguffinman 3y ago
Because Apple ruins the "cross platform" part by crippling it on their own popular platforms. It's a lot less appealing to develop cross platform code when you still have to make a native app for one of the biggest platforms out there: iOS. I also wouldn't bet on games being exclusively native now that cloud gaming is available and WebGPU is in heavy development. Right now cloud gaming is locked out of the iOS App Store but Apple has managed to lock it into Safari.
- scarface_74 3y ago
  But most companies still need a website for desktop use. So why don’t they just tell Android users to use the web instead of a dedicated app? Is it not worth the trouble of doing a PWA if it were good enough to avoid the “Google tax”? Games - which make up 90% of mobile revenue already use cross platform frameworks. Cross platform frameworks have never been good enough and they’ve sucked since Java Swing all the way up to Electron apps. BTW, Apple now allows cloud gaming in the App Store world wide.
  - themacguffinman 3y ago
    Actually a lot of companies don't need something for desktop use, it's very common to adopt a mobile-first or mobile-only strategy especially if you're a startup. Usually the very largest services will have a good desktop experience. Even then you have services like Instagram and Threads where the desktop web experience is clearly not a priority. Desktop is increasingly irrelevant to consumer markets. > Is it not worth the trouble of doing a PWA if it were good enough to avoid the “Google tax”? No it's often not, Android is typically the smaller platform in terms of revenue. There are also easier ways to avoid the Google tax because both Android and Google Play Store is more permissive. > BTW, Apple now allows cloud gaming in the App Store world wide. That's a good step forward, although Microsoft's head of gaming claims it's still not open enough to support xCloud, which is probably due to Apple imposing the classic revenue cut on all cloud gaming purchases. Edit: I forgot to address these two quotes, I'll just quickly note that the two statements literally contradict each other: > Games - which make up 90% of mobile revenue already use cross platform frameworks. > Cross platform frameworks have never been good enough and they’ve sucked since Java Swing all the way up to Electron apps.

lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 3y ago

> Those apps aren’t going to be PWAs. Except when a manager learns that they can keep Apple’s 30% if they release a PWA instead. They don’t even need to know what a PWA is, they just ask the developer if it’s possible, who says “something something WebGL and web sockets?” The manager thinks it’s a great idea. Whether that translates to their users migrating to the new implementation could be up in the air. I suspect Apple will lose some revenue, at any rate, and they’re likely thinking similarly.

scarface_74 3y ago
So you really think that none of these game developers or their management never heard about PWAs and if they thought they could avoid the 30% fee on Android by creating one without any loss in usage they wouldn’t do it?

szasamasa 3y ago

if apple did not care, they would not have crippled web capabilities in the last 10+ years and they would just let chromium/gecko based browsers make use of web standards web apps are the future that may take as much as 90%+ of the 100B app store revenue web apps will succeed once good programmers and companies make strategic decisions to build good web apps crippling web apps on one important major platform like iOS stalls these strategic decisions since it is not easy to tell your programmers that now you learn js and web technologies if you still need those native apps in addition, most companies have already published native apps, web apps will start to gain success after apple is forced to let them work with feature parity on iOS etc. AND 3-5-10 years pass since rather new companies choose web apps get back to your observation of "popularity" after apple is forced from governments and competition authorities to support web apps on iOS (just like on macOS or every other OS does) plus 5 years!

scarface_74 3y ago
Where are all of the great PWAs for Android and why are the same companies making apps for iOS also making native apps for Android?
- szasamasa 3y ago
  maybe there are still no great web apps because Apple is still crippling web capabilities on a major platform and the status quo is still hiring mobile app developers because not technical managers copy each other to stay safe and users are used to native apps nobody said that you have to allow possible great standalone UX on major platforms like iOS because tons of managers made the mistake to invest in web strategy because they trusted Apple to be nice and hence they have these great products already first step is open all major platforms so that managers and developers see the web as a potential alternative to native app stores, then we will see much more great web apps in 1-2-3-5-10 years... I think microsoft made outlook a web app to have one code base, it is a very big step that capital strong companies make first because it is reimplementing same functionality first... we want great web apps in the future, the web capabilities are already there, we need investment and good app programmers instead of web designers to see great web apps that build on the great web capabilities the web capabilities are already there, you should study them... the great web apps not yet because Apple has been crippling them for over 10 years now and they have sole power over one of the major platforms

mmcnl 3y ago

90% _today_. Strategic chess moves like this are about the next decade. The web is becoming more and more powerful and who says Fortnite can't run in a browser in 5 years? Especially if EU forces Apple to allow alternative browser engines that Apple can't control. It's an existential threat to the App Store model.

scarface_74 3y ago
And what is stopping Epic from using a PWA today on Android of its just Apple holding them back?
- mmcnl 3y ago
  No idea, but as I said it's about the next decade, not today.
  - JustExAWS 3y ago
    Is the mass adoption of PWAs on mobile - including Android where Chrome is suppose to be so much better - like the “year of Linux on the desktop”? (and the HN gods don’t like me now for some unknown reason)
    - mmcnl 3y ago
      No, I don't think so, for the end user it doesn't matter a lot (though increased competition will be of benefit for the end user obviously). But what matters is that Apple can't be a gatekeeper for PWAs and so they can't charge their 30% App Store tax. So it matters a lot for developers. That's why it's a threat to the App Store model.
      - scarface_74 3y ago
        You still didn’t answer the question - if it means so much for developers, why not use PWAs on Android today?

themacguffinman 3y ago

Because Apple ruins the "cross platform" part by crippling it on their own popular platforms. It's a lot less appealing to develop cross platform code when you still have to make a native app for one of the biggest platforms out there: iOS. I also wouldn't bet on games being exclusively native now that cloud gaming is available and WebGPU is in heavy development. Right now cloud gaming is locked out of the iOS App Store but Apple has managed to lock it into Safari.

scarface_74 3y ago
But most companies still need a website for desktop use. So why don’t they just tell Android users to use the web instead of a dedicated app? Is it not worth the trouble of doing a PWA if it were good enough to avoid the “Google tax”? Games - which make up 90% of mobile revenue already use cross platform frameworks. Cross platform frameworks have never been good enough and they’ve sucked since Java Swing all the way up to Electron apps. BTW, Apple now allows cloud gaming in the App Store world wide.
- themacguffinman 3y ago
  Actually a lot of companies don't need something for desktop use, it's very common to adopt a mobile-first or mobile-only strategy especially if you're a startup. Usually the very largest services will have a good desktop experience. Even then you have services like Instagram and Threads where the desktop web experience is clearly not a priority. Desktop is increasingly irrelevant to consumer markets. > Is it not worth the trouble of doing a PWA if it were good enough to avoid the “Google tax”? No it's often not, Android is typically the smaller platform in terms of revenue. There are also easier ways to avoid the Google tax because both Android and Google Play Store is more permissive. > BTW, Apple now allows cloud gaming in the App Store world wide. That's a good step forward, although Microsoft's head of gaming claims it's still not open enough to support xCloud, which is probably due to Apple imposing the classic revenue cut on all cloud gaming purchases. Edit: I forgot to address these two quotes, I'll just quickly note that the two statements literally contradict each other: > Games - which make up 90% of mobile revenue already use cross platform frameworks. > Cross platform frameworks have never been good enough and they’ve sucked since Java Swing all the way up to Electron apps.