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Those were the days ... when we actually had general elections ...

by LightBug1 3y ago

bluescrn 3y ago
We've had elections, we've just lacked competent opposition :(
- tialaramex 3y ago
  Too many British people are suckers. That's what I see in the last several General Elections. They allowed themselves to believe that even though the Tories are the problem, maybe more Tories is the answer, that shouldn't have passed the laugh test. Not that it's so simple necessarily, I remember one friend lived in Vauxhall at the time of one of those elections, after the Brexit referendum and its aftermath but before implementation. People there had been such reliable Labour voters that they weren't even looking at their candidate. Which had been Kate Hoey. Now, Vauxhall is the kind of place that's voting Labour because of social politics, they're proud of their gay night scene, they've got a lot of Vegans, they're inner city folks so they don't want hunting with guns and dogs, they're against wars and they like Europe. Hoey is [at that time] a Labour MP but she's anti-gay, she supporting hunting and wants more guns... and of course she's Pro-Brexit. She's a terrible fit, but hey, they're a solid Labour constituency. Nobody I met there had any idea. To them you go to the poll, you pick Labour, you're done. Sending some woman who wants you and your friends dead and opposes everything you stand for? They had no idea. I urged him and his wife to actually read about their candidates now that Hoey was gone (she resigned), but not sure if they ever did before they moved out here. You don't need to know your representative very well (I do, but won't when he is replaced next time) but you should at least know who they are and what they're about (his would-be replacement is the woman who leads my city government, unremarkable, seems basically competent)
  - wlpu 3y ago
    I think you may have it wrong, I don't believe the people thought that the Tories were the solution (specifically in the last election), but rather that Labour was a worse choice than the Tories were at the time (rightly or wrongly). I don't remember anyone being particularly happy about it at the time whether they voted for or against them, and after the matter some staunch Labour voters I knew came and said to me that "the country wasn't ready yet for what Labour were offering". The painful thing about where politics are now in the UK is that once again the coming election is a rejection of a party (the Tories this time), not an embrace of one (Labour this time). It is a sad state of affairs.
    - pydry 3y ago
      >people thought that the Tories were the solution (specifically in the last election), but rather that Labour was a worse choice than the Tories That had more to do with the media being owned by British oligarchs obsessed with nuking a threat to their wealth. They hated the guy who hid in a fridge but they preferred him to the guy who was going to tax them a lot more. In 2017 the fairness in broadcasting laws kicked in just before the election and when Labour got equal airtime in the media there was a straight line climb in popularity as people actually heard the unfiltered views of the opposition. That straight line climb is what led to the hung parliament. A few more weeks of that and it would have been a Labour victory. During the last election those laws were ignored and Boris was treated as some sort of white knight in shining brexit armour by the same people who dispatched him with partygate and he was duly elected. In this election Labour has the full endorsement of those media-owning oligarchs not because it is run by competent leadership (starmer is a moron), but because unlike the last guy he's very oligarch friendly. Their wealth is safe with him in charge.
    - stephen_g 3y ago
      I’m not in the UK but a lot of that looking in seemed to be various smear campaigns, both from inside the Labour Party (from the now leading faction, who are almost just Tories who are in the wrong party) and from outside… One thing I found it quite interesting was seeing people on Twitter etc. who some years ago I’d seen giving support to smears of “antisemitism” hurled at politicians (including actually Jewish ones) in the Labour Party for voicing opposition of the Israeli Government’s policies and actions towards the Palestinian people, now condemning the Israeli Government in even stronger terms than those politicians ever had…
  - erehweb 3y ago
    I dunno. Sure there are bad cases, but basically you're voting for the PM and all the policies they will put in. If there's a really crucial matter the party can always impose a three-line whip.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - foldr 3y ago
    What would they have done differently if they'd known all that about Hoey? I'd still vote for my preferred party's candidate in such circumstances.
roenxi 3y ago
It isn't too much of a stretch to say the UK has been in continual decline since since the end of general elections. Literally - 1920s was the point where the British empire started coming apart at the seams. First they got into WWI and set up the conditions for WWII, misjudged everything, managed to exhaust the reserves of their empire and then retreated to their miserable and godforsaken island home with relative grace over the rest of the century. Maybe if they'd had good general elections they'd have made different decisions around WWI and averted all that.
- WalterBright 3y ago
  C Northcote Parkinson, in "The Law and the Profits", pegs the turning point for Britain was 1909, when the taxation and socialist welfare state emerged. https://www.amazon.com/Law-Profits-Cyril-Northcote-Parkinson/dp/0395080657 https://www.amazon.com/Law-Profits-Cyril-Northcote-Parkinson...
  - bluerooibos 3y ago
    Who? Considering the conservatives who hate taxation and the welfare state have been in power for 77 years versus the 30 or so years Labour have had, I'd love to know how the author arrived at said conclusion.
    - all2 3y ago
      It's almost like the talking points don't have anything to do with their actual agenda. Is anyone still surprised by this?
    - roenxi 3y ago
      I'd speculate they were either lying about their motivations or ineffective (maybe both). UK government spending has consistently trended up over the last century [0]. It follows a pattern of large expansions then small pullbacks. Of that, social spending basically only goes up (there is a graph a little down the same page). [0] https://ourworldindata.org/government-spending https://ourworldindata.org/government-spending

Those were the days ... when we actually had general elections ...

bluescrn 3y ago

We've had elections, we've just lacked competent opposition :(

tialaramex 3y ago
Too many British people are suckers. That's what I see in the last several General Elections. They allowed themselves to believe that even though the Tories are the problem, maybe more Tories is the answer, that shouldn't have passed the laugh test. Not that it's so simple necessarily, I remember one friend lived in Vauxhall at the time of one of those elections, after the Brexit referendum and its aftermath but before implementation. People there had been such reliable Labour voters that they weren't even looking at their candidate. Which had been Kate Hoey. Now, Vauxhall is the kind of place that's voting Labour because of social politics, they're proud of their gay night scene, they've got a lot of Vegans, they're inner city folks so they don't want hunting with guns and dogs, they're against wars and they like Europe. Hoey is [at that time] a Labour MP but she's anti-gay, she supporting hunting and wants more guns... and of course she's Pro-Brexit. She's a terrible fit, but hey, they're a solid Labour constituency. Nobody I met there had any idea. To them you go to the poll, you pick Labour, you're done. Sending some woman who wants you and your friends dead and opposes everything you stand for? They had no idea. I urged him and his wife to actually read about their candidates now that Hoey was gone (she resigned), but not sure if they ever did before they moved out here. You don't need to know your representative very well (I do, but won't when he is replaced next time) but you should at least know who they are and what they're about (his would-be replacement is the woman who leads my city government, unremarkable, seems basically competent)
- wlpu 3y ago
  I think you may have it wrong, I don't believe the people thought that the Tories were the solution (specifically in the last election), but rather that Labour was a worse choice than the Tories were at the time (rightly or wrongly). I don't remember anyone being particularly happy about it at the time whether they voted for or against them, and after the matter some staunch Labour voters I knew came and said to me that "the country wasn't ready yet for what Labour were offering". The painful thing about where politics are now in the UK is that once again the coming election is a rejection of a party (the Tories this time), not an embrace of one (Labour this time). It is a sad state of affairs.
  - pydry 3y ago
    >people thought that the Tories were the solution (specifically in the last election), but rather that Labour was a worse choice than the Tories That had more to do with the media being owned by British oligarchs obsessed with nuking a threat to their wealth. They hated the guy who hid in a fridge but they preferred him to the guy who was going to tax them a lot more. In 2017 the fairness in broadcasting laws kicked in just before the election and when Labour got equal airtime in the media there was a straight line climb in popularity as people actually heard the unfiltered views of the opposition. That straight line climb is what led to the hung parliament. A few more weeks of that and it would have been a Labour victory. During the last election those laws were ignored and Boris was treated as some sort of white knight in shining brexit armour by the same people who dispatched him with partygate and he was duly elected. In this election Labour has the full endorsement of those media-owning oligarchs not because it is run by competent leadership (starmer is a moron), but because unlike the last guy he's very oligarch friendly. Their wealth is safe with him in charge.
  - stephen_g 3y ago
    I’m not in the UK but a lot of that looking in seemed to be various smear campaigns, both from inside the Labour Party (from the now leading faction, who are almost just Tories who are in the wrong party) and from outside… One thing I found it quite interesting was seeing people on Twitter etc. who some years ago I’d seen giving support to smears of “antisemitism” hurled at politicians (including actually Jewish ones) in the Labour Party for voicing opposition of the Israeli Government’s policies and actions towards the Palestinian people, now condemning the Israeli Government in even stronger terms than those politicians ever had…
- erehweb 3y ago
  I dunno. Sure there are bad cases, but basically you're voting for the PM and all the policies they will put in. If there's a really crucial matter the party can always impose a three-line whip.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- foldr 3y ago
  What would they have done differently if they'd known all that about Hoey? I'd still vote for my preferred party's candidate in such circumstances.

roenxi 3y ago

It isn't too much of a stretch to say the UK has been in continual decline since since the end of general elections. Literally - 1920s was the point where the British empire started coming apart at the seams. First they got into WWI and set up the conditions for WWII, misjudged everything, managed to exhaust the reserves of their empire and then retreated to their miserable and godforsaken island home with relative grace over the rest of the century. Maybe if they'd had good general elections they'd have made different decisions around WWI and averted all that.

WalterBright 3y ago
C Northcote Parkinson, in "The Law and the Profits", pegs the turning point for Britain was 1909, when the taxation and socialist welfare state emerged. https://www.amazon.com/Law-Profits-Cyril-Northcote-Parkinson/dp/0395080657 https://www.amazon.com/Law-Profits-Cyril-Northcote-Parkinson...
- bluerooibos 3y ago
  Who? Considering the conservatives who hate taxation and the welfare state have been in power for 77 years versus the 30 or so years Labour have had, I'd love to know how the author arrived at said conclusion.
  - all2 3y ago
    It's almost like the talking points don't have anything to do with their actual agenda. Is anyone still surprised by this?
  - roenxi 3y ago
    I'd speculate they were either lying about their motivations or ineffective (maybe both). UK government spending has consistently trended up over the last century [0]. It follows a pattern of large expansions then small pullbacks. Of that, social spending basically only goes up (there is a graph a little down the same page). [0] https://ourworldindata.org/government-spending https://ourworldindata.org/government-spending