4 ms·

I don't know the whole 25 thing seems to be just mainly be something like a meme. You go out and you can meet extremely personable, social, and polite, teens al

I don't know the whole 25 thing seems to be just mainly be something like a meme. You go out and you can meet extremely personable, social, and polite, teens all the time. You can also find the grunters. Sometimes it's just personality. Sometimes it's dealing with puberty. Sometimes it's genuflecting against authority. As long as you support them, give them guidance in a respectful way, and involve yourself in their interests, most teens end up totally well adjusted by the time they finish high-school. (Also, I bet your teens would agree that your efforts are "inhumane")

qball 3y ago
>the whole 25 thing seems to be just mainly be something like a meme It comes from the same place "scientific" racism did. It's an excuse to not even bother trying because "muh hormones". Adult initiation rituals tend to be 13-14 in every pre-industrial society (current and historic) because that's when it happens biologically; it is therefore not a surprise, in Western countries where it's delayed by a decade, that the people from 14-25 are not developing correctly. The first step to fixing this is to acknowledge the problem exists.
- wolverine876 3y ago
  > Adult initiation rituals tend to be 13-14 in every pre-industrial society (current and historic) because that's when it happens biologically; it is therefore not a surprise, in Western countries where it's delayed by a decade, that the people from 14-25 are not developing correctly. I don't know how to define 'correctly' here, but in politically and economically advanced countries they develop in much more healthy and productive ways. People who are forced to be adults at 15 often never get a chance to mature.
- DiscourseFan 3y ago
  I don't know, 25-30 happens to be the age at which most people are having the most sex (at least statistically), its a time when you are still sharp and horny and haven't gotten bored of chasing sex but you have stupidly high self-confidence and your whole life and the the whole world ahead of you, when you become involved in real industry and make some of the most important social connections in your life. It might be unique to our era (of capitalism), but its definitely true that even if those teenagers appear to be polite, you must remember yourself what it was like to be a teenager, how frustrated and angry and anxious you were all the time, how little you really knew about the world, even if you were nice in public. I don't think those basic impressions you get are definitive.
- michaelmrose 3y ago
  Pre-industrial society was a horrifying murder fest that gets worse the further you go back with people living in prehistoric societies 9 times more likely to die of violence. One needed to begin taking on responsibility very early both because early societies needed every hand available just to secure enough food but because you might not have long. The operation of such societies should be regarded as an optimization for current circumstances rather than an optimal strategy. If you think what we are doing is poorly suited you are going to have to justify that position on its own merits.
- geraldhh 3y ago
  idk preindustrial society requires every able body for manual labor and has a huge incentive to forgoe building of character and mind. i don't want that for my children
wolverine876 3y ago
One essential - existential - skill that children learn is to please ADULTS (Authoritarian Domineering Unseeing Ludicrous Tedious Superhypocritals). Their actual survival (food, shelter, safety), their welfare, their happiness depends extremely on Adults. If you were in their shoes in regard to some authority - especially an authority that behaves as badly as Adults - you would learn too. They learn how to not upset Adults (and how to effectively upset them too), how to be pleasing, how to stay out of trouble, how to utterly lie and not get caught. Teens are advanced children in this respect. Now you might think you are too smart to be fooled, and that of course is your downfall (didn't you read in school about hubris and arrogance?). The kids are humans, it is very high stakes for them and they study and hone every technique. For them it is their most productive skill. You are massivly outgunned. Adult. You might think you are good-willed and trustworthy, but you are inescapably an Adult. You have that unchecked power and have been corrupted by it. Even if you are truly a friend now you can switch on that power in a moment if something bothers you, at your whim, by your mood. It's like petting an unrestrained lion; no matter how calm and playful it seems, licking you, nuzzling you, purring ... you are paying very close attention and tailoring every move to its pleasure. What if something scares it? I work to maintain great empathy for children's position (hard to do, because I am corrupted by unchecked power). When interacting, I keep my mouth shut - a whispered syllable dominates the conversation, even if to provoke resistance. I listen attentively: are they speaking with their own voice, for their own cause, of their own perspective? A good signal is if it's too pleasing, if it fits so beautifully and joyfully in my beliefs, relieving all tension - here is a child who understands! Lol. Other people, especially with the vastly different experience of a different generation and of childhood, will have very different ideas and perspectives, many hard to understand or uncomfortable. Just think what you sound like to them. When kids do that pleasing thing, what response do you see? You see Adults compliment them - 'what fine children!' The Adults are suckers, and if you think back to your teenage years, you know it. Adults are so easy. There's another issue here. I was once at a casual Adult dinner party and a couple had brought their only child, a 13 year old. The child, as far as I could tell, was the Adults' best friend and they said as much. I tried engaging the child away from their parents and give them some space to be themselves, to be valued as themselves. They said they wanted to be there, with Adults (lol), because 'who wants to hang out with 13 year olds?' So truly heartbreaking.
stubish 3y ago
25 years is generally when the brain has fully matured physically, which as you say does not necessarily correlate with behavior.

qball 3y ago

>the whole 25 thing seems to be just mainly be something like a meme It comes from the same place "scientific" racism did. It's an excuse to not even bother trying because "muh hormones". Adult initiation rituals tend to be 13-14 in every pre-industrial society (current and historic) because that's when it happens biologically; it is therefore not a surprise, in Western countries where it's delayed by a decade, that the people from 14-25 are not developing correctly. The first step to fixing this is to acknowledge the problem exists.

wolverine876 3y ago
> Adult initiation rituals tend to be 13-14 in every pre-industrial society (current and historic) because that's when it happens biologically; it is therefore not a surprise, in Western countries where it's delayed by a decade, that the people from 14-25 are not developing correctly. I don't know how to define 'correctly' here, but in politically and economically advanced countries they develop in much more healthy and productive ways. People who are forced to be adults at 15 often never get a chance to mature.
DiscourseFan 3y ago
I don't know, 25-30 happens to be the age at which most people are having the most sex (at least statistically), its a time when you are still sharp and horny and haven't gotten bored of chasing sex but you have stupidly high self-confidence and your whole life and the the whole world ahead of you, when you become involved in real industry and make some of the most important social connections in your life. It might be unique to our era (of capitalism), but its definitely true that even if those teenagers appear to be polite, you must remember yourself what it was like to be a teenager, how frustrated and angry and anxious you were all the time, how little you really knew about the world, even if you were nice in public. I don't think those basic impressions you get are definitive.
michaelmrose 3y ago
Pre-industrial society was a horrifying murder fest that gets worse the further you go back with people living in prehistoric societies 9 times more likely to die of violence. One needed to begin taking on responsibility very early both because early societies needed every hand available just to secure enough food but because you might not have long. The operation of such societies should be regarded as an optimization for current circumstances rather than an optimal strategy. If you think what we are doing is poorly suited you are going to have to justify that position on its own merits.
geraldhh 3y ago
idk preindustrial society requires every able body for manual labor and has a huge incentive to forgoe building of character and mind. i don't want that for my children

wolverine876 3y ago

One essential - existential - skill that children learn is to please ADULTS (Authoritarian Domineering Unseeing Ludicrous Tedious Superhypocritals). Their actual survival (food, shelter, safety), their welfare, their happiness depends extremely on Adults. If you were in their shoes in regard to some authority - especially an authority that behaves as badly as Adults - you would learn too. They learn how to not upset Adults (and how to effectively upset them too), how to be pleasing, how to stay out of trouble, how to utterly lie and not get caught. Teens are advanced children in this respect. Now you might think you are too smart to be fooled, and that of course is your downfall (didn't you read in school about hubris and arrogance?). The kids are humans, it is very high stakes for them and they study and hone every technique. For them it is their most productive skill. You are massivly outgunned. Adult. You might think you are good-willed and trustworthy, but you are inescapably an Adult. You have that unchecked power and have been corrupted by it. Even if you are truly a friend now you can switch on that power in a moment if something bothers you, at your whim, by your mood. It's like petting an unrestrained lion; no matter how calm and playful it seems, licking you, nuzzling you, purring ... you are paying very close attention and tailoring every move to its pleasure. What if something scares it? I work to maintain great empathy for children's position (hard to do, because I am corrupted by unchecked power). When interacting, I keep my mouth shut - a whispered syllable dominates the conversation, even if to provoke resistance. I listen attentively: are they speaking with their own voice, for their own cause, of their own perspective? A good signal is if it's too pleasing, if it fits so beautifully and joyfully in my beliefs, relieving all tension - here is a child who understands! Lol. Other people, especially with the vastly different experience of a different generation and of childhood, will have very different ideas and perspectives, many hard to understand or uncomfortable. Just think what you sound like to them. When kids do that pleasing thing, what response do you see? You see Adults compliment them - 'what fine children!' The Adults are suckers, and if you think back to your teenage years, you know it. Adults are so easy. There's another issue here. I was once at a casual Adult dinner party and a couple had brought their only child, a 13 year old. The child, as far as I could tell, was the Adults' best friend and they said as much. I tried engaging the child away from their parents and give them some space to be themselves, to be valued as themselves. They said they wanted to be there, with Adults (lol), because 'who wants to hang out with 13 year olds?' So truly heartbreaking.

stubish 3y ago

25 years is generally when the brain has fully matured physically, which as you say does not necessarily correlate with behavior.