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First, they annoy the elders. Then when they grow up to be teenagers, they live in a cave and communicate mostly through grunting. I am at this phase with my c

First, they annoy the elders. Then when they grow up to be teenagers, they live in a cave and communicate mostly through grunting. I am at this phase with my children and I make inhumane efforts not to react and let it flow. I hope that when their brain actually fires up when they are 25 or 30, they will be nice kids who realize what their parents when through to raise them. Please comment only to confirm this, I am desperate.

thih9 3y ago
That is correct, at some point after 25 their behavior shifts. The change is extreme, eventually they complain about other child/teenage humans and forget they themselves were in that stage not that long ago.
wenebego 3y ago
Can confirm, you got this
heresie-dabord 3y ago
The juveniles suffer from some of the weaknesses of their parents and all of the weaknesses of the species. The context of the social group may also have instilled poor social habits in both the juveniles and the elders. When the elders have gathered enough simple experiences to understand these factors clearly instead of simply seeing the juveniles as being unquestionably destined for greatness in Learning and Civilisation, it is likely that a real social bond can be formed. Improved communication and gestures of mutual caring have often been observed subsequently.
beezlebroxxxxxx 3y ago
I don't know the whole 25 thing seems to be just mainly be something like a meme. You go out and you can meet extremely personable, social, and polite, teens all the time. You can also find the grunters. Sometimes it's just personality. Sometimes it's dealing with puberty. Sometimes it's genuflecting against authority. As long as you support them, give them guidance in a respectful way, and involve yourself in their interests, most teens end up totally well adjusted by the time they finish high-school. (Also, I bet your teens would agree that your efforts are "inhumane")
- qball 3y ago
  >the whole 25 thing seems to be just mainly be something like a meme It comes from the same place "scientific" racism did. It's an excuse to not even bother trying because "muh hormones". Adult initiation rituals tend to be 13-14 in every pre-industrial society (current and historic) because that's when it happens biologically; it is therefore not a surprise, in Western countries where it's delayed by a decade, that the people from 14-25 are not developing correctly. The first step to fixing this is to acknowledge the problem exists.
  - wolverine876 3y ago
    > Adult initiation rituals tend to be 13-14 in every pre-industrial society (current and historic) because that's when it happens biologically; it is therefore not a surprise, in Western countries where it's delayed by a decade, that the people from 14-25 are not developing correctly. I don't know how to define 'correctly' here, but in politically and economically advanced countries they develop in much more healthy and productive ways. People who are forced to be adults at 15 often never get a chance to mature.
  - DiscourseFan 3y ago
    I don't know, 25-30 happens to be the age at which most people are having the most sex (at least statistically), its a time when you are still sharp and horny and haven't gotten bored of chasing sex but you have stupidly high self-confidence and your whole life and the the whole world ahead of you, when you become involved in real industry and make some of the most important social connections in your life. It might be unique to our era (of capitalism), but its definitely true that even if those teenagers appear to be polite, you must remember yourself what it was like to be a teenager, how frustrated and angry and anxious you were all the time, how little you really knew about the world, even if you were nice in public. I don't think those basic impressions you get are definitive.
  - michaelmrose 3y ago
    Pre-industrial society was a horrifying murder fest that gets worse the further you go back with people living in prehistoric societies 9 times more likely to die of violence. One needed to begin taking on responsibility very early both because early societies needed every hand available just to secure enough food but because you might not have long. The operation of such societies should be regarded as an optimization for current circumstances rather than an optimal strategy. If you think what we are doing is poorly suited you are going to have to justify that position on its own merits.
kibwen 3y ago
If your parents are still around, ask them how they dealt with it when you were going through that phase.
jffhn 3y ago
>when their brain actually fires up when they are 25 or 30 Their brain fires up at about 14, and soon starts to figure out that life is actually a costume party, so they spend the next decade in their cave pondering about it while making up their costume, naturally grunting at you while you annoy them with your mundane down-to-earth already-costumed person considerations. Then at 25 or 30 their costume is ready and they start playing with you childishly again. "I was ashamed of myself when I realized life was a costume party, and I attended with my real face." (Kafka) "Parents who expect gratitude from their children (there are even some who require it) are like those usurers who willingly risk the capital to receive interest." (Kafka)
- Solvency 3y ago
  ...so what's your costume?
  - jffhn 3y ago
    Kafka's costume, obviously.
  - riehwvfbk 3y ago
    A giant vermin
  - underlipton 3y ago
    Fursuit.
  - datameta 3y ago
    A human skin one-piece that looks suspiciously like my biologically given body.
    - imbnwa 3y ago
      The worst kind of body horror
      - datameta 3y ago
ambyra 3y ago
Probably the best thing for the young chimpanzees is to be out of the house most of the time, be put into a bunch of sports/programs. At that age they start to resent their parents, and they learn a lot more when they're outside doing stuff.
- anonym29 3y ago
  Forcing them to be out of the house is a great way to ensure they never have the time to practice their expressed interest in programming that can eventually lead to a lucrative career.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - mixmastamyk 3y ago
    I’ve tried to encourage that many times… doesn’t seem to be taking.
    - ambyra 3y ago
      Every kid I met hates/doesn’t appreciate what their parents do/are at all. Like 0. I think it’s an evolutionary adaptation.
  - bfncieezo 3y ago
    are you seriously arguing that children are better off in front of a computer than playing sports with their friends?
    - bdjsiqoocwk 3y ago
      Seriously maybe? What's so special about playing sports with friends? Why is that sooooo important? I never had an interest in sports, and so I made friends with other kids that had no interest in sports.
      - 3y ago
kingkawn 3y ago
They are doing the reasonable thing to create differentiation between their personality development and yours. They are likely accurately identifying aspects of your behavior that are maladaptive to growing up in their era. The alienation is an effort to create room for themselves to become something else. You can respect the wisdom of their inclinations, or continue to prove them right by not doing so. Either way, they will make themselves as they need.
anonym29 3y ago
Decreasingly-recent ex-teenager here. I was a pretty terrible teenager but after my brain fired up, I made it clear to them how grateful I was for the immense personal sacrifices they both undertook to raise my siblings and I.
jvanderbot 3y ago
Yes - 100% confirm based on my experience as a grunting ape, and watching my nephew and nieces and cousins grow up. I have toddlers now, and am dreading the upcoming cave phase, esp because once they reach adulthood (real adulthood - 25/30), I'll be dying age.
lp4vn 3y ago
"Children begin by loving their parents; after a time they judge them; rarely, if ever, do they forgive them." -- Oscar Wilde For me it's exactly the opposite. When I was a teenager I was always afraid and deferential of my parents, now I can't help but see them as narcisistic and abusive.
y-c-o-m-b 3y ago
Sounds like you'll skip the "trouble with the law and court dates" phase of this. Congrats! You're doing great. I was not so lucky. A special shout out to Instagram and Tik Tok for the miserable cherry on top. I hope those platforms implode before the next child becomes a teen.
mrj 3y ago
Confirmed, happily. My step-kids from my previous marriage are reaching this age and after several years of grunt-only communication, suddenly they are back in my life. It was obviously hard for them and lots of things happened that were out of any of our control, but even in this situation, they came back. It's a joy.
djsavvy 3y ago
25 here. Thanks for the reminder to call my parents.
rayiner 3y ago
> I hope that when their brain actually fires up when they are 25 or 30, they will be nice kids who realize what their parents when through to raise them. My wife and I never had much anger towards our parents, but whatever was there totally dissipated when we had our first child. I wonder if many millennials will never get that realization, after having kids a decade later in life than their parents did. We had our daughter in our mid-late 20s, as we were finishing law school. By the time we had our boys 6 and 8 years later, we had a house, we’re established in our careers, etc. The parenting experience later in life was very different, and much easier—aside from less physical stamina—than it was earlier in life.

thih9 3y ago

That is correct, at some point after 25 their behavior shifts. The change is extreme, eventually they complain about other child/teenage humans and forget they themselves were in that stage not that long ago.

wenebego 3y ago

Can confirm, you got this

heresie-dabord 3y ago

The juveniles suffer from some of the weaknesses of their parents and all of the weaknesses of the species. The context of the social group may also have instilled poor social habits in both the juveniles and the elders. When the elders have gathered enough simple experiences to understand these factors clearly instead of simply seeing the juveniles as being unquestionably destined for greatness in Learning and Civilisation, it is likely that a real social bond can be formed. Improved communication and gestures of mutual caring have often been observed subsequently.

beezlebroxxxxxx 3y ago

I don't know the whole 25 thing seems to be just mainly be something like a meme. You go out and you can meet extremely personable, social, and polite, teens all the time. You can also find the grunters. Sometimes it's just personality. Sometimes it's dealing with puberty. Sometimes it's genuflecting against authority. As long as you support them, give them guidance in a respectful way, and involve yourself in their interests, most teens end up totally well adjusted by the time they finish high-school. (Also, I bet your teens would agree that your efforts are "inhumane")

qball 3y ago
>the whole 25 thing seems to be just mainly be something like a meme It comes from the same place "scientific" racism did. It's an excuse to not even bother trying because "muh hormones". Adult initiation rituals tend to be 13-14 in every pre-industrial society (current and historic) because that's when it happens biologically; it is therefore not a surprise, in Western countries where it's delayed by a decade, that the people from 14-25 are not developing correctly. The first step to fixing this is to acknowledge the problem exists.
- wolverine876 3y ago
  > Adult initiation rituals tend to be 13-14 in every pre-industrial society (current and historic) because that's when it happens biologically; it is therefore not a surprise, in Western countries where it's delayed by a decade, that the people from 14-25 are not developing correctly. I don't know how to define 'correctly' here, but in politically and economically advanced countries they develop in much more healthy and productive ways. People who are forced to be adults at 15 often never get a chance to mature.
- DiscourseFan 3y ago
  I don't know, 25-30 happens to be the age at which most people are having the most sex (at least statistically), its a time when you are still sharp and horny and haven't gotten bored of chasing sex but you have stupidly high self-confidence and your whole life and the the whole world ahead of you, when you become involved in real industry and make some of the most important social connections in your life. It might be unique to our era (of capitalism), but its definitely true that even if those teenagers appear to be polite, you must remember yourself what it was like to be a teenager, how frustrated and angry and anxious you were all the time, how little you really knew about the world, even if you were nice in public. I don't think those basic impressions you get are definitive.
- michaelmrose 3y ago
  Pre-industrial society was a horrifying murder fest that gets worse the further you go back with people living in prehistoric societies 9 times more likely to die of violence. One needed to begin taking on responsibility very early both because early societies needed every hand available just to secure enough food but because you might not have long. The operation of such societies should be regarded as an optimization for current circumstances rather than an optimal strategy. If you think what we are doing is poorly suited you are going to have to justify that position on its own merits.

kibwen 3y ago

If your parents are still around, ask them how they dealt with it when you were going through that phase.

jffhn 3y ago

>when their brain actually fires up when they are 25 or 30 Their brain fires up at about 14, and soon starts to figure out that life is actually a costume party, so they spend the next decade in their cave pondering about it while making up their costume, naturally grunting at you while you annoy them with your mundane down-to-earth already-costumed person considerations. Then at 25 or 30 their costume is ready and they start playing with you childishly again. "I was ashamed of myself when I realized life was a costume party, and I attended with my real face." (Kafka) "Parents who expect gratitude from their children (there are even some who require it) are like those usurers who willingly risk the capital to receive interest." (Kafka)

Solvency 3y ago
...so what's your costume?
- jffhn 3y ago
  Kafka's costume, obviously.
- riehwvfbk 3y ago
  A giant vermin
- underlipton 3y ago
  Fursuit.
- datameta 3y ago
  A human skin one-piece that looks suspiciously like my biologically given body.
  - imbnwa 3y ago
    The worst kind of body horror
    - datameta 3y ago

ambyra 3y ago

Probably the best thing for the young chimpanzees is to be out of the house most of the time, be put into a bunch of sports/programs. At that age they start to resent their parents, and they learn a lot more when they're outside doing stuff.

anonym29 3y ago
Forcing them to be out of the house is a great way to ensure they never have the time to practice their expressed interest in programming that can eventually lead to a lucrative career.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- mixmastamyk 3y ago
  I’ve tried to encourage that many times… doesn’t seem to be taking.
  - ambyra 3y ago
    Every kid I met hates/doesn’t appreciate what their parents do/are at all. Like 0. I think it’s an evolutionary adaptation.
- bfncieezo 3y ago
  are you seriously arguing that children are better off in front of a computer than playing sports with their friends?
  - bdjsiqoocwk 3y ago
    Seriously maybe? What's so special about playing sports with friends? Why is that sooooo important? I never had an interest in sports, and so I made friends with other kids that had no interest in sports.
    - 3y ago

kingkawn 3y ago

They are doing the reasonable thing to create differentiation between their personality development and yours. They are likely accurately identifying aspects of your behavior that are maladaptive to growing up in their era. The alienation is an effort to create room for themselves to become something else. You can respect the wisdom of their inclinations, or continue to prove them right by not doing so. Either way, they will make themselves as they need.

anonym29 3y ago

Decreasingly-recent ex-teenager here. I was a pretty terrible teenager but after my brain fired up, I made it clear to them how grateful I was for the immense personal sacrifices they both undertook to raise my siblings and I.

jvanderbot 3y ago

Yes - 100% confirm based on my experience as a grunting ape, and watching my nephew and nieces and cousins grow up. I have toddlers now, and am dreading the upcoming cave phase, esp because once they reach adulthood (real adulthood - 25/30), I'll be dying age.

lp4vn 3y ago

"Children begin by loving their parents; after a time they judge them; rarely, if ever, do they forgive them." -- Oscar Wilde For me it's exactly the opposite. When I was a teenager I was always afraid and deferential of my parents, now I can't help but see them as narcisistic and abusive.

y-c-o-m-b 3y ago

Sounds like you'll skip the "trouble with the law and court dates" phase of this. Congrats! You're doing great. I was not so lucky. A special shout out to Instagram and Tik Tok for the miserable cherry on top. I hope those platforms implode before the next child becomes a teen.

mrj 3y ago

Confirmed, happily. My step-kids from my previous marriage are reaching this age and after several years of grunt-only communication, suddenly they are back in my life. It was obviously hard for them and lots of things happened that were out of any of our control, but even in this situation, they came back. It's a joy.

djsavvy 3y ago

25 here. Thanks for the reminder to call my parents.

rayiner 3y ago

> I hope that when their brain actually fires up when they are 25 or 30, they will be nice kids who realize what their parents when through to raise them. My wife and I never had much anger towards our parents, but whatever was there totally dissipated when we had our first child. I wonder if many millennials will never get that realization, after having kids a decade later in life than their parents did. We had our daughter in our mid-late 20s, as we were finishing law school. By the time we had our boys 6 and 8 years later, we had a house, we’re established in our careers, etc. The parenting experience later in life was very different, and much easier—aside from less physical stamina—than it was earlier in life.