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PWA's can do most things: https://whatpwacando.today https://whatpwacando.today. Steve Jobs also preferred PWAs and hated the app store. I'm curious as to ask w

PWA's can do most things: https://whatpwacando.today https://whatpwacando.today. Steve Jobs also preferred PWAs and hated the app store. I'm curious as to ask what they can't do that a native app can do without any workaround whatsoever? I don't know of a single person, ordinary person, who uses PWAs. A Cordova app is a better experience.

lozenge 3y ago
I don't mean just adding an improved notification API, I mean they could literally allow access to the entire SwiftUI and all other iOS APIs from the web. Heck, they could allow PWAs to run in Objective-C instead of JavaScript. At that point it would be indistinguishable from a native app, except that it would not be beholden to Apple's policies like Core Technology Fee, notarisation, payment scare screens, etc ( https://proton.me/blog/apple-dma-compliance-plan-trap https://proton.me/blog/apple-dma-compliance-plan-trap )
- neximo64 3y ago
  You can use web notifications, and you can compile Objective C to webassembly. You're also able to use apple pay. Everything you've mentioned has a workaround. I'm really getting at how PWAs are basically something most people wouldn't use, not because they're missing APIs but because they're just a terrible experience and difficult to install and use. If its Apple that is holding back PWAs so much, its not that they're any successful on Android either. And then to extend the argument further, "App Clips" or "Instant Apps" aren't much success either from an adoption perspective, despite having full access to the APIs native apps have.
  - anon373839 3y ago
    There is another thing holding PWAs back: they don’t offer as much data mining potential as native apps. A lot of companies sabotage their own web apps just to force you to use the spyware in the App Store, and I’ll admit that isn’t Apple’s fault.
  - wiseowise 3y ago
    > And then to extend the argument further, "App Clips" or "Instant Apps" aren't much success either from an adoption perspective, despite having full access to the APIs native apps have. They never had full access to the APIs native apps have, what are you talking about? Last time I tried to develop instant app on Android (and that was like 4(?) years ago), it didn't have access to network interfaces or something like that. It was a great idea on paper, but terrible in execution.
  - szasamasa 3y ago
    your comment is terrible and a big tell you have no idea of web technology :) there are plenty of web capabilities that have web standards, PWA is not even a thing officially... no such thing as PWA actually, no such thing explicitly as web app, either... "installing" web apps is also non-existent officially, it is a very misleading buzzword if you could call something web app it is a website that was switched to a "standalone UX" from a browser tab UX, according to this non-standard draft (!) https://www.w3.org/TR/appmanifest/ https://www.w3.org/TR/appmanifest/ last time I checked, zero manifest members were mandatory... the ones you would use are "name" and "icon" which is how your homescreen button etc. would show up nothing will be installed (but if we use this word, how on earth is "installation" difficult, you press a button and it is "installed": really fast I guess since nothing will be downloaded extra or installed... all that happens is you get some OS integratin in app discovery UI or a homescreen button or it actually depends on the OS and you can launch the website directly in standalone mode as an "app"... it is still browser run, browser sandboxed etc. just browser UI you have not the real "progressivity" is entangled from standalone... the website may be a beast or a shitty scam site that just wanted homescreen presence and send you notifications (same with native, depends on developers not distribution platform used) so objectively bullshit calling web apps in general terrible, difficult, something people would not use... practically every website is a potential web app if they add a manifest file with 2 members and people use websites all the time... the question is how good a website written, is it responsive, can it do offline etc... there are so many web capabilities now... whether a website or a standalone website is good, easy, something people would use depends 100% on the quality... no website or web app is inherently something you described
    - dang 3y ago
      > your comment is terrible and a big tell you have no idea of web technology You can't attack another user like that on this site, and we ban accounts that do, so please don't do it again. If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here, we'd appreciate it.
      - szasamasa 3y ago
p_l 3y ago
I find PWAs great for all those little used or temporary apps. I have a bunch of specialized calculators installed as PWAs - they work great for the purposes. Similarly, there's no reason a conference should have a native app that will only pollute my system over time - PWAs are ideal for once-only events that aren't going to reuse the app for next edition.
- palata 3y ago
  > temporary apps Can you not install a native app one day, and uninstall it the next day? Or does it not count as "temporary"? Or are PWAs uninstalling automatically somehow?
  - szasamasa 3y ago
    I think what was meant is lightweight. Of course a web app can be heavyweight or lightweight just as a native app. Still in a sense that smaller companies might publish smaller apps as web apps to have only one codebase justifies a web app niche for lightweight apps.
    - p_l 3y ago
      Lightweight in interaction pattern and size on the device. Yes, they can load quite a lot of stuff in service worker etc, but it's not the same as coming all at once with everything in application archive.
  - p_l 3y ago
    Native apps have tendency to linger more because of how auto update mechanisms etc will reinstall them after you forgot about them. They have also way more permissions and ways to be exploited against you. Additionally, it's the heavyweight process of installing but also distributing etc of native apps Vs PWAs
  - wiseowise 3y ago
    > Can you not install a native app one day, and uninstall it the next day? Or does it not count as "temporary"? "Don't you guys have phones?" > Or are PWAs uninstalling automatically somehow? They don't weigh 100MBs. I feel extremely privileged to have access to super fast networks, but it doesn't mean that lazy developers get right to hog it all.
azangru 3y ago
> Steve Jobs also preferred PWAs and hated the app store. Steve Jobs died in 2011. None of the apis that make a PWA had been developed by then. How can you know what he preferred or hated?
- collaborative 3y ago
  I think he's referring to the justifications Steve Jobs gave to kill Flash. Apparently, it was because he really wanted a complete web standard that didn't revolve a particular framework. Apple then introduced the App Store and forgot all about its desire for (complete) web standards So apple has killed both Flash and (useful) web standards and we are left with unnecessary, gate-keeping, expensive, price gauging App Stores. Hypocrisy at its finest. But at least it's got an Apple on it, so I guess it's fine It used to be possible to "grow" stuff online. People made a living from developing Flash games (and websites). Aggregators competed and paid well for content. It's now all going to Apple's shareholders and Wall Street, and it's a complete waste of time to develop anything that needs publishing via the App Store. What a sad state of affairs
- incrudible 3y ago
  People often forget this, but before the App Store, the idea was that you would use HTML apps, added to the homescreen. It was in the very first iPhone. It was not called PWA then, and technically a PWA need not be a homescreen app either. Whether Steve hated the App Store I do not know, but it was not in his original vision for the iPhone.
  - michaelt 3y ago
    Maybe. Or maybe they knew things like the ipaq had third-party software, and they didn't have time to add such capabilities in time for launch, so they only encouraged PWAs as an interim measure.
vdaea 3y ago
What PWA Can Not Do Today: stick out like a sore thumb.
troupo 3y ago
> PWA's can do most things: https://whatpwacando.today https://whatpwacando.today. At least half of those things are "not on any standards track" and are Chrome-only non-standards. (But sure let's hear the wail that Safari is the new IE or something)

lozenge 3y ago

I don't mean just adding an improved notification API, I mean they could literally allow access to the entire SwiftUI and all other iOS APIs from the web. Heck, they could allow PWAs to run in Objective-C instead of JavaScript. At that point it would be indistinguishable from a native app, except that it would not be beholden to Apple's policies like Core Technology Fee, notarisation, payment scare screens, etc ( https://proton.me/blog/apple-dma-compliance-plan-trap https://proton.me/blog/apple-dma-compliance-plan-trap )

neximo64 3y ago
You can use web notifications, and you can compile Objective C to webassembly. You're also able to use apple pay. Everything you've mentioned has a workaround. I'm really getting at how PWAs are basically something most people wouldn't use, not because they're missing APIs but because they're just a terrible experience and difficult to install and use. If its Apple that is holding back PWAs so much, its not that they're any successful on Android either. And then to extend the argument further, "App Clips" or "Instant Apps" aren't much success either from an adoption perspective, despite having full access to the APIs native apps have.
- anon373839 3y ago
  There is another thing holding PWAs back: they don’t offer as much data mining potential as native apps. A lot of companies sabotage their own web apps just to force you to use the spyware in the App Store, and I’ll admit that isn’t Apple’s fault.
- wiseowise 3y ago
  > And then to extend the argument further, "App Clips" or "Instant Apps" aren't much success either from an adoption perspective, despite having full access to the APIs native apps have. They never had full access to the APIs native apps have, what are you talking about? Last time I tried to develop instant app on Android (and that was like 4(?) years ago), it didn't have access to network interfaces or something like that. It was a great idea on paper, but terrible in execution.
- szasamasa 3y ago
  your comment is terrible and a big tell you have no idea of web technology :) there are plenty of web capabilities that have web standards, PWA is not even a thing officially... no such thing as PWA actually, no such thing explicitly as web app, either... "installing" web apps is also non-existent officially, it is a very misleading buzzword if you could call something web app it is a website that was switched to a "standalone UX" from a browser tab UX, according to this non-standard draft (!) https://www.w3.org/TR/appmanifest/ https://www.w3.org/TR/appmanifest/ last time I checked, zero manifest members were mandatory... the ones you would use are "name" and "icon" which is how your homescreen button etc. would show up nothing will be installed (but if we use this word, how on earth is "installation" difficult, you press a button and it is "installed": really fast I guess since nothing will be downloaded extra or installed... all that happens is you get some OS integratin in app discovery UI or a homescreen button or it actually depends on the OS and you can launch the website directly in standalone mode as an "app"... it is still browser run, browser sandboxed etc. just browser UI you have not the real "progressivity" is entangled from standalone... the website may be a beast or a shitty scam site that just wanted homescreen presence and send you notifications (same with native, depends on developers not distribution platform used) so objectively bullshit calling web apps in general terrible, difficult, something people would not use... practically every website is a potential web app if they add a manifest file with 2 members and people use websites all the time... the question is how good a website written, is it responsive, can it do offline etc... there are so many web capabilities now... whether a website or a standalone website is good, easy, something people would use depends 100% on the quality... no website or web app is inherently something you described
  - dang 3y ago
    > your comment is terrible and a big tell you have no idea of web technology You can't attack another user like that on this site, and we ban accounts that do, so please don't do it again. If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here, we'd appreciate it.
    - szasamasa 3y ago

p_l 3y ago

I find PWAs great for all those little used or temporary apps. I have a bunch of specialized calculators installed as PWAs - they work great for the purposes. Similarly, there's no reason a conference should have a native app that will only pollute my system over time - PWAs are ideal for once-only events that aren't going to reuse the app for next edition.

palata 3y ago
> temporary apps Can you not install a native app one day, and uninstall it the next day? Or does it not count as "temporary"? Or are PWAs uninstalling automatically somehow?
- szasamasa 3y ago
  I think what was meant is lightweight. Of course a web app can be heavyweight or lightweight just as a native app. Still in a sense that smaller companies might publish smaller apps as web apps to have only one codebase justifies a web app niche for lightweight apps.
  - p_l 3y ago
    Lightweight in interaction pattern and size on the device. Yes, they can load quite a lot of stuff in service worker etc, but it's not the same as coming all at once with everything in application archive.
- p_l 3y ago
  Native apps have tendency to linger more because of how auto update mechanisms etc will reinstall them after you forgot about them. They have also way more permissions and ways to be exploited against you. Additionally, it's the heavyweight process of installing but also distributing etc of native apps Vs PWAs
- wiseowise 3y ago
  > Can you not install a native app one day, and uninstall it the next day? Or does it not count as "temporary"? "Don't you guys have phones?" > Or are PWAs uninstalling automatically somehow? They don't weigh 100MBs. I feel extremely privileged to have access to super fast networks, but it doesn't mean that lazy developers get right to hog it all.

azangru 3y ago

> Steve Jobs also preferred PWAs and hated the app store. Steve Jobs died in 2011. None of the apis that make a PWA had been developed by then. How can you know what he preferred or hated?

collaborative 3y ago
I think he's referring to the justifications Steve Jobs gave to kill Flash. Apparently, it was because he really wanted a complete web standard that didn't revolve a particular framework. Apple then introduced the App Store and forgot all about its desire for (complete) web standards So apple has killed both Flash and (useful) web standards and we are left with unnecessary, gate-keeping, expensive, price gauging App Stores. Hypocrisy at its finest. But at least it's got an Apple on it, so I guess it's fine It used to be possible to "grow" stuff online. People made a living from developing Flash games (and websites). Aggregators competed and paid well for content. It's now all going to Apple's shareholders and Wall Street, and it's a complete waste of time to develop anything that needs publishing via the App Store. What a sad state of affairs
incrudible 3y ago
People often forget this, but before the App Store, the idea was that you would use HTML apps, added to the homescreen. It was in the very first iPhone. It was not called PWA then, and technically a PWA need not be a homescreen app either. Whether Steve hated the App Store I do not know, but it was not in his original vision for the iPhone.
- michaelt 3y ago
  Maybe. Or maybe they knew things like the ipaq had third-party software, and they didn't have time to add such capabilities in time for launch, so they only encouraged PWAs as an interim measure.

vdaea 3y ago

What PWA Can Not Do Today: stick out like a sore thumb.

troupo 3y ago

> PWA's can do most things: https://whatpwacando.today https://whatpwacando.today. At least half of those things are "not on any standards track" and are Chrome-only non-standards. (But sure let's hear the wail that Safari is the new IE or something)