3 ms·

We’ve been running thousands of Pis in production for about a decade now. We’re beginning to shift to x86. The price/performance isn’t what it once was for the

by mvip 3y ago

We’ve been running thousands of Pis in production for about a decade now. We’re beginning to shift to x86. The price/performance isn’t what it once was for the Pi. I gave a talk about our experience recently at State of Open Con here (https://youtu.be/vX-qK9mxKZI https://youtu.be/vX-qK9mxKZI).

spintin 3y ago
You need to factor in usage, if you are idling a lot ARM > X86. And you need to look at longevity, there I suspect ARM will outlive X86 too. For modularity ARM > X86 too, because they are cheaper to have many small of. But for scalability (= business in the current economy) X86 > ARM. Also all graphs should be per watt, that 2 -> 4 is more performant is not news, that it is more performant per watt is! And if you did that you would see that Raspberry 5 is not getting as much per watt performance increase as it should. We have peaked permanently for the eternity of mankind. Let that sink in. Last but not least, the ONLY hope for any progress (openness not performance) at this point is the JH7110, but they are lagging behind in 3D support.
- mvip 3y ago
  Our customer don’t really care about power usage much as they are all connected to a TV which draws order of magnitude more power. For some use cases power usage is key, but not for our use case.
- AshamedCaptain 3y ago
  > if you are idling a lot ARM > X86. Don't take this for a given. RPis are notoriously bad at idle power consumption. The x86 replacement I bought for my home server ended up having about half the idle power consumption of the RPi it was replacing.
- pi-rat 3y ago
  I think maybe you’re overestimating the idle power consumption of modernish x86 (especially the last 5-6 gens of intel)? I’ve a i5 9600T system that’s drawing less than a Pi at idle. And cost me the same to buy. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/1/d/1LHvT2fRp7I6Hf18LcSzsNnjp10VI-odvwZpQZKv_NCI/htmlview#gid=0 https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/1/d/1LHvT2fRp7I6Hf18L...
Horffupolde 3y ago
What do you mean shift to x86?
- treprinum 3y ago
  Maybe Alder Lake-N? Those cores are very fast (Skylake-level) and <10W full load. RPi5 is at 8.5W full load and much slower.
Always42 3y ago
is this for running displays or is this being used for production assembly machines? (eg gpio usage)
- mvip 3y ago
  Currently for displays, but with Edge Apps you will be able to run workloads that interfaces with sensors etc over GPIO (and USB/Serial).
  - Always42 3y ago
    thanks for responding! I feel like Raspberry pi has one leg up regarding gpio. I have never tried to do gpio from windows (E.g. belink) I am sure it is possible with usb adapters, but then you are dealing with changing come ports etc
    - mvip 3y ago
      Yeah the built-in GPIO on the Raspberry Pi is nice indeed. You can get PCs with GPIO too tho. If you look for 'industrial gateways' you'll find a number of them, but they are a bit more pricey. Alternatively, you can use a GPIO over USB, but that comes with own set of challenges.
dividuum 3y ago
Fellow Raspberry Pi digital signage CEO here :). Surprised you didn’t mention the secure boot support, available since the Pi4, in your talk. While our service doesn’t use it (yet?) it sounds quite solid on paper and allows you to protect the data on disk/SD. We’re still pretty happy with the Pi and the move to more open source APIs (Mesa/DRM/KMS/FFmpeg) is, now that they are finally in a state they feel usable, really promising. As our main use case is still digital signage, the raw processes power isn’t really that relevant as the expensive part (video decoding) is obviously accelerated and the backwards compatibility that’s possible with the Pi is awesome. We still have customers running Pi1B+ devices continuously for almost 10 years with the latest OS release we provide.
- mvip 3y ago
  Agree on the adoption of open standards. That’s a step in the right direction. But even with secure boot on the pi, it’s still missing a TPM for other cryptographic operations. We use a lot of Zero Trust stuff on x86 and you can’t do that on the Pi. The Pi is fine for videos/images (less proper storage), but chokes on a lot of modern web assets.
  - dividuum 3y ago
    True, but now I’m curious what kind of cryptographic operation you’re doing that would need to be protected from local root. Because that should be the only case a TPM is helpful (compared to the Pi secure boot option) and in that case the device is compromised anyway and can show anything on the screen and have all local processes taken over. Agreed on the web stuff. But I’d say the web sucks, not the Pi. :-)
    - mvip 3y ago
      We consider anything that you can extract from the drive by removing it security theater. Root or not doesn’t matter. You’re right that physical access is game over for content in general. This is more about extracting sensitive data (like credentials/tokens to 3rd party sites). All backend communication is done using mTLS, where the private key never leaves the TPM (on x86). Moreover, we’re encrypting all sensitive data we send to the device using the corresponding public key. Thus even if you rip the drive out of the device, you won’t have much luck.

by mvip 3y ago

spintin 3y ago

You need to factor in usage, if you are idling a lot ARM > X86. And you need to look at longevity, there I suspect ARM will outlive X86 too. For modularity ARM > X86 too, because they are cheaper to have many small of. But for scalability (= business in the current economy) X86 > ARM. Also all graphs should be per watt, that 2 -> 4 is more performant is not news, that it is more performant per watt is! And if you did that you would see that Raspberry 5 is not getting as much per watt performance increase as it should. We have peaked permanently for the eternity of mankind. Let that sink in. Last but not least, the ONLY hope for any progress (openness not performance) at this point is the JH7110, but they are lagging behind in 3D support.

mvip 3y ago
Our customer don’t really care about power usage much as they are all connected to a TV which draws order of magnitude more power. For some use cases power usage is key, but not for our use case.
AshamedCaptain 3y ago
> if you are idling a lot ARM > X86. Don't take this for a given. RPis are notoriously bad at idle power consumption. The x86 replacement I bought for my home server ended up having about half the idle power consumption of the RPi it was replacing.
pi-rat 3y ago
I think maybe you’re overestimating the idle power consumption of modernish x86 (especially the last 5-6 gens of intel)? I’ve a i5 9600T system that’s drawing less than a Pi at idle. And cost me the same to buy. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/1/d/1LHvT2fRp7I6Hf18LcSzsNnjp10VI-odvwZpQZKv_NCI/htmlview#gid=0 https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/1/d/1LHvT2fRp7I6Hf18L...

Horffupolde 3y ago

What do you mean shift to x86?

treprinum 3y ago
Maybe Alder Lake-N? Those cores are very fast (Skylake-level) and <10W full load. RPi5 is at 8.5W full load and much slower.

Always42 3y ago

is this for running displays or is this being used for production assembly machines? (eg gpio usage)

mvip 3y ago
Currently for displays, but with Edge Apps you will be able to run workloads that interfaces with sensors etc over GPIO (and USB/Serial).
- Always42 3y ago
  thanks for responding! I feel like Raspberry pi has one leg up regarding gpio. I have never tried to do gpio from windows (E.g. belink) I am sure it is possible with usb adapters, but then you are dealing with changing come ports etc
  - mvip 3y ago
    Yeah the built-in GPIO on the Raspberry Pi is nice indeed. You can get PCs with GPIO too tho. If you look for 'industrial gateways' you'll find a number of them, but they are a bit more pricey. Alternatively, you can use a GPIO over USB, but that comes with own set of challenges.

dividuum 3y ago

Fellow Raspberry Pi digital signage CEO here :). Surprised you didn’t mention the secure boot support, available since the Pi4, in your talk. While our service doesn’t use it (yet?) it sounds quite solid on paper and allows you to protect the data on disk/SD. We’re still pretty happy with the Pi and the move to more open source APIs (Mesa/DRM/KMS/FFmpeg) is, now that they are finally in a state they feel usable, really promising. As our main use case is still digital signage, the raw processes power isn’t really that relevant as the expensive part (video decoding) is obviously accelerated and the backwards compatibility that’s possible with the Pi is awesome. We still have customers running Pi1B+ devices continuously for almost 10 years with the latest OS release we provide.

mvip 3y ago
Agree on the adoption of open standards. That’s a step in the right direction. But even with secure boot on the pi, it’s still missing a TPM for other cryptographic operations. We use a lot of Zero Trust stuff on x86 and you can’t do that on the Pi. The Pi is fine for videos/images (less proper storage), but chokes on a lot of modern web assets.
- dividuum 3y ago
  True, but now I’m curious what kind of cryptographic operation you’re doing that would need to be protected from local root. Because that should be the only case a TPM is helpful (compared to the Pi secure boot option) and in that case the device is compromised anyway and can show anything on the screen and have all local processes taken over. Agreed on the web stuff. But I’d say the web sucks, not the Pi. :-)
  - mvip 3y ago
    We consider anything that you can extract from the drive by removing it security theater. Root or not doesn’t matter. You’re right that physical access is game over for content in general. This is more about extracting sensitive data (like credentials/tokens to 3rd party sites). All backend communication is done using mTLS, where the private key never leaves the TPM (on x86). Moreover, we’re encrypting all sensitive data we send to the device using the corresponding public key. Thus even if you rip the drive out of the device, you won’t have much luck.