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> a lot of the far right are coming around to be pro Russia Pro-Russia or pro-US? The alt-right stance I've been seeing is that the war accomplishes nothing, i

by roenxi 3y ago

> a lot of the far right are coming around to be pro Russia Pro-Russia or pro-US? The alt-right stance I've been seeing is that the war accomplishes nothing, introduces a lot of needless risks and wastes resources better spent elsewhere. It looks like all the US is achieving is piles of dead Slavs. That isn't wealth generation or strategically useful. It has been decades since US foreign interventions have done anything useful for the US, the base rate here leans strongly towards pacifism being the most effective strategy. Even in the Russia-Ukraine war, I've been arguing that this gives China opportunities more than anything else. Hopefully the CCP are too inept to seize on them.

distortionfield 3y ago
There’s definitely a sizeable chunk of pro-Russia in right wing circles. I’m reminded of those “I’d rather be a Russian than a Democrat” t-shirts that were popular in Republican circles from the 2016 election.
- latency-guy2 3y ago
  I think that demonstrates relative hatred of Democrats, not love of Russia You might liken it to vowing to never voting Republican, even if you agree on some issues
  - distortionfield 3y ago
    I would agree if it wasn’t for the wave of Russian apologia that accompanied Republican talking points during the Trump administration.
  - karmakurtisaani 3y ago
    > I think that demonstrates relative hatred of Democrats, not love of Russia It cleverly uses the hate for democrats to push for the love for Russia. Once you normalize this line of thinking, Russia is seen in a more favourable light by anyone who falls for it.
    - latency-guy2 3y ago
      I think anything can mean anything these days. So, whatever you say.
      - karmakurtisaani 3y ago
        Funnily enough, this is one of the key goals of Russian propaganda machine. If you can convince people that everything is equal lies, you can lie to them as you like and they'll consider it alongside all the other narratives. Convenient!
        latency-guy2 3y ago
        You seem to know lots about propaganda, I trust your opinion
- tivert 3y ago
  > There’s definitely a sizeable chunk of pro-Russia in right wing circles. I’m reminded of those “I’d rather be a Russian than a Democrat” t-shirts that were popular in Republican circles from the 2016 election. Honestly, that sounds mostly like a troll designed specifically to derange liberals ("own the libs" or whatever). If I remember my 2016 correctly, liberals were freaking out about Russian election interference at the time.
ape_key 3y ago
hey, I want to interpret this charitably but the language here is pretty bad: “achieving […] dead Slavs […] isn’t […] useful”. Yeah I know I used a lot of editing but the sentiment and word choice is there. I don’t want the US to be the world police but I don’t want to dismiss that Putin is deeply rotten. And I don’t think whether something is “useful” is the only concern. Are we helping? Are we making things worse? These are how we should talk about things.
- roenxi 3y ago
  When Russia invaded in 2022 it looked like they were going to conquer Ukraine. Then they'd have to stop because they would bump into the NATO border. Then the US intervened. Maybe the European powers too, I dunno what the politics in the NATO war room looked like. Now it looks like the country is levelled, Europe is undergoing an energy crisis because of their response, it is now a realistic possibility that NATO might not be able to coerce Russia, China or even Iran on the outside. My money is still on the US but they're making it look like a struggle. And the plan for Ukraine recovering seems to involve them being bankrolled by a bankrupt US so I don't see that working out well either. This isn't the 1950s, the US is not in a position to go rebuild Europe. They have enough problems figuring out how to build prosperity in the USA without trying to do it overseas. That is a core complaint of the right wing and a significant part why said right-wingers are trying to vote a wrecking ball into the presidency. Is the US helping? Maybe. Not a very clear picture yet. Compare this to Iraq or Afghanistan where nobody stood up for them after the US invasion. It was bad for the countries, I don't know if it was worse than what is going on in Ukraine but I suspect we'll discover that US intervention has made things worse.
  - ape_key 3y ago
    I’m not strictly isolationist. I’m also not smart enough to predict what happens when playing Risk with real countries. It’s definitely possible that sending weapons into a conflict just makes it worse. Especially when soldiers are just people on both ends. My only dispute with your text is that we definitely have the ability to get our shit together financially in the US. The opposition is purely ideological. “We can’t” becomes “we don’t try” becomes “we can’t”.

by roenxi 3y ago

distortionfield 3y ago

There’s definitely a sizeable chunk of pro-Russia in right wing circles. I’m reminded of those “I’d rather be a Russian than a Democrat” t-shirts that were popular in Republican circles from the 2016 election.

latency-guy2 3y ago
I think that demonstrates relative hatred of Democrats, not love of Russia You might liken it to vowing to never voting Republican, even if you agree on some issues
- distortionfield 3y ago
  I would agree if it wasn’t for the wave of Russian apologia that accompanied Republican talking points during the Trump administration.
- karmakurtisaani 3y ago
  > I think that demonstrates relative hatred of Democrats, not love of Russia It cleverly uses the hate for democrats to push for the love for Russia. Once you normalize this line of thinking, Russia is seen in a more favourable light by anyone who falls for it.
  - latency-guy2 3y ago
    I think anything can mean anything these days. So, whatever you say.
    - karmakurtisaani 3y ago
      Funnily enough, this is one of the key goals of Russian propaganda machine. If you can convince people that everything is equal lies, you can lie to them as you like and they'll consider it alongside all the other narratives. Convenient!
      - latency-guy2 3y ago
        You seem to know lots about propaganda, I trust your opinion
tivert 3y ago
> There’s definitely a sizeable chunk of pro-Russia in right wing circles. I’m reminded of those “I’d rather be a Russian than a Democrat” t-shirts that were popular in Republican circles from the 2016 election. Honestly, that sounds mostly like a troll designed specifically to derange liberals ("own the libs" or whatever). If I remember my 2016 correctly, liberals were freaking out about Russian election interference at the time.

ape_key 3y ago

hey, I want to interpret this charitably but the language here is pretty bad: “achieving […] dead Slavs […] isn’t […] useful”. Yeah I know I used a lot of editing but the sentiment and word choice is there. I don’t want the US to be the world police but I don’t want to dismiss that Putin is deeply rotten. And I don’t think whether something is “useful” is the only concern. Are we helping? Are we making things worse? These are how we should talk about things.

roenxi 3y ago
When Russia invaded in 2022 it looked like they were going to conquer Ukraine. Then they'd have to stop because they would bump into the NATO border. Then the US intervened. Maybe the European powers too, I dunno what the politics in the NATO war room looked like. Now it looks like the country is levelled, Europe is undergoing an energy crisis because of their response, it is now a realistic possibility that NATO might not be able to coerce Russia, China or even Iran on the outside. My money is still on the US but they're making it look like a struggle. And the plan for Ukraine recovering seems to involve them being bankrolled by a bankrupt US so I don't see that working out well either. This isn't the 1950s, the US is not in a position to go rebuild Europe. They have enough problems figuring out how to build prosperity in the USA without trying to do it overseas. That is a core complaint of the right wing and a significant part why said right-wingers are trying to vote a wrecking ball into the presidency. Is the US helping? Maybe. Not a very clear picture yet. Compare this to Iraq or Afghanistan where nobody stood up for them after the US invasion. It was bad for the countries, I don't know if it was worse than what is going on in Ukraine but I suspect we'll discover that US intervention has made things worse.
- ape_key 3y ago
  I’m not strictly isolationist. I’m also not smart enough to predict what happens when playing Risk with real countries. It’s definitely possible that sending weapons into a conflict just makes it worse. Especially when soldiers are just people on both ends. My only dispute with your text is that we definitely have the ability to get our shit together financially in the US. The opposition is purely ideological. “We can’t” becomes “we don’t try” becomes “we can’t”.