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I mean in France, you've got Marine LePen. In the Netherlands you've got Geert Wilders. Robert Fico wanted to take Slovakia back to a past when oligarchs domina

by SEJeff 3y ago

I mean in France, you've got Marine LePen. In the Netherlands you've got Geert Wilders. Robert Fico wanted to take Slovakia back to a past when oligarchs dominated the state. PiS wanted to turn poland into the arsenal of the EU and got a really good start on it, etc. Nationalism is having a renaissance since Trump won in 2020, but it turns out overall to be a terrible way to run a country.

wonderwonder 3y ago
How are they undermining democracy though? You may not like their politics but what have they done to say they are anti democratic?
- n4r9 3y ago
  Things like a strong and independent media, legal system, parliament and police force are crucial to democracy. It can be justifiable to argue that someone is anti-democratic if they advocate a narrative that erodes trust in any of these.
  - wonderwonder 3y ago
    That's an interesting idea. Covers both political parties, with the left undermining trust in the police, and Supreme Court. The right in the FBI and journalism.
    - n4r9 3y ago
      It's context-dependent, but that's the basic idea. In the UK for example, we currently have quite a right-wing government in power, which is: * Undermining our Supreme Court by trying to force through a migrant deportation scheme which the court has ruled unlawful * Eroding the Police Force's independence by claiming they are biased in their approach to protests * Trying to defund and delegitimise the BBC It might be because I'm fairly left wing myself, but I think you have go pretty far into authoritarian-left territory (think Stalinism) before you start becoming seriously anti-democratic. Before that point most leftists are pretty keen on giving power and choice to ordinary people and communities.
ivan_gammel 3y ago
PiS was close, Slovakia is maybe getting there, but Orban is the longest serving prime minister of Hungary. He actually did it and he stays in power. LePen, Wilders etc did not do a single thing from Orban’s list. They didn’t even form a government which could do it.
- SEJeff 3y ago
  On that we totally agree. Orban is the top goon for sure, but he's not the only one, and there are several in the wings trying really hard. The fact that LePen has done as well as she has twice now is in and of itself horrifying.

by SEJeff 3y ago

wonderwonder 3y ago

How are they undermining democracy though? You may not like their politics but what have they done to say they are anti democratic?

n4r9 3y ago
Things like a strong and independent media, legal system, parliament and police force are crucial to democracy. It can be justifiable to argue that someone is anti-democratic if they advocate a narrative that erodes trust in any of these.
- wonderwonder 3y ago
  That's an interesting idea. Covers both political parties, with the left undermining trust in the police, and Supreme Court. The right in the FBI and journalism.
  - n4r9 3y ago
    It's context-dependent, but that's the basic idea. In the UK for example, we currently have quite a right-wing government in power, which is: * Undermining our Supreme Court by trying to force through a migrant deportation scheme which the court has ruled unlawful * Eroding the Police Force's independence by claiming they are biased in their approach to protests * Trying to defund and delegitimise the BBC It might be because I'm fairly left wing myself, but I think you have go pretty far into authoritarian-left territory (think Stalinism) before you start becoming seriously anti-democratic. Before that point most leftists are pretty keen on giving power and choice to ordinary people and communities.

ivan_gammel 3y ago

PiS was close, Slovakia is maybe getting there, but Orban is the longest serving prime minister of Hungary. He actually did it and he stays in power. LePen, Wilders etc did not do a single thing from Orban’s list. They didn’t even form a government which could do it.

SEJeff 3y ago
On that we totally agree. Orban is the top goon for sure, but he's not the only one, and there are several in the wings trying really hard. The fact that LePen has done as well as she has twice now is in and of itself horrifying.