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Is Shanghai Turning Pro or Just Building High? by Nathan Myhrvold

7 points by robg 18y ago

light3 18y ago
'Shanghai looked more like Manhattan on a Sunday' He was obviously didn't know where to find the jackpot. To experience the real culture of Shanghai you need to live life closer to the 'locals', not in some hotel in Pudong(east), all you'll find there is tall buildings. Hell I haven't even seen half of the places in those pictures. If you took a moment to observe the locals that would be culture, the people in Shanghai are distinct to other parts of China, with traits such as quick wit and hard work, indeed they speak their own dialect. If he is trying to find old buildings as evidence of culture, Shanghai is not the best place, although there are quite a few around, including the famous tourist attraction Cheng Huang Miao: http://outdoors.webshots.com/photo/1108224679049820088RZkVRy http://outdoors.webshots.com/photo/1108224679049820088RZkVRy
markessien 18y ago
I spent several months in china from last year to this year. I only stayed in Shanghai for a short while, because the city is built to impress, so it's easy to get blinded by the glamour. But all the same, China is developing, and it's developing in a way that is dangerous to the west. I traveled to some villages where foreigners hardly ever go, and you see that the government is making a lot of money available to the people there to build. It's a form of ultra-capitalist socialism, where the government gives people money to develop, so that they themselves can develop. But when I say it's dangerous to the west, what I mean is that it's developing, but the gap between the rich people and the poor people is still very clear, at least in the cities I was in. This means that a guy with a factory can afford to hire WAY more people, and has a lot more choice in his employees. There is no attempt to bring the workers then to the same level. This means that building factories and industries is way cheaper than in the west, and they have a lot more staff for a lot less money. The living standard will not grow as fast, but the wealth in China will grow quickly.
- eru 18y ago
  And where's the danger you talked about?
  - lionhearted 18y ago
    Pretty sure Mark meant China's manufacturing/industrial sectors has the potential to put the Western ones out of business. Which might well happen, but the Western world isn't going quietly - the West has already started strategically introducing McDonald's, Pepsi, and reality TV into China in an attempt to stem off growth.
    - eru 18y ago
      > Pretty sure Mark meant China's manufacturing/industrial sectors has the potential to put the Western ones out of business. So what? I could care less. For me it does not matter if I buy my wares from the guy down the street or from somebody across the globe. Why should I prefer one over the other? Why discriminate?
      - markessien 18y ago
        That's not the point. The point is that a structure is being created that has the potential to make the chinese industries so much more productive, that the same system would have to be adopted in the west. And not just there, but all the other emerging economies that are trying to industrialize. They would all have to follow the same system. South East Asia, Africa, South America etc. Now I'm not saying that the income of workers in China is not going to rise - I'm saying that at the moment, there is a big difference, and that gives them a competitive advantage. In china you typically have 3 or more people serving you at one table when you go to a restaurant. That would not be possible in the west because of the high labour cost - in China it's possible because of the wage difference between what is being earned in the restaurant and what the workers earn. Controlling your economy and only buying local goods is not a good idea in my opinion, but when there are new manufacturing processes being used in emerging countries, then you have to be aware of this. I don't believe in protectionism at all, so that's not the point I'm trying to convey.

7 points by robg 18y ago

'Shanghai looked more like Manhattan on a Sunday' He was obviously didn't know where to find the jackpot. To experience the real culture of Shanghai you need to live life closer to the 'locals', not in some hotel in Pudong(east), all you'll find there is tall buildings. Hell I haven't even seen half of the places in those pictures. If you took a moment to observe the locals that would be culture, the people in Shanghai are distinct to other parts of China, with traits such as quick wit and hard work, indeed they speak their own dialect. If he is trying to find old buildings as evidence of culture, Shanghai is not the best place, although there are quite a few around, including the famous tourist attraction Cheng Huang Miao: http://outdoors.webshots.com/photo/1108224679049820088RZkVRy http://outdoors.webshots.com/photo/1108224679049820088RZkVRy

markessien 18y ago

I spent several months in china from last year to this year. I only stayed in Shanghai for a short while, because the city is built to impress, so it's easy to get blinded by the glamour. But all the same, China is developing, and it's developing in a way that is dangerous to the west. I traveled to some villages where foreigners hardly ever go, and you see that the government is making a lot of money available to the people there to build. It's a form of ultra-capitalist socialism, where the government gives people money to develop, so that they themselves can develop. But when I say it's dangerous to the west, what I mean is that it's developing, but the gap between the rich people and the poor people is still very clear, at least in the cities I was in. This means that a guy with a factory can afford to hire WAY more people, and has a lot more choice in his employees. There is no attempt to bring the workers then to the same level. This means that building factories and industries is way cheaper than in the west, and they have a lot more staff for a lot less money. The living standard will not grow as fast, but the wealth in China will grow quickly.

eru 18y ago
And where's the danger you talked about?
- lionhearted 18y ago
  Pretty sure Mark meant China's manufacturing/industrial sectors has the potential to put the Western ones out of business. Which might well happen, but the Western world isn't going quietly - the West has already started strategically introducing McDonald's, Pepsi, and reality TV into China in an attempt to stem off growth.
  - eru 18y ago
    > Pretty sure Mark meant China's manufacturing/industrial sectors has the potential to put the Western ones out of business. So what? I could care less. For me it does not matter if I buy my wares from the guy down the street or from somebody across the globe. Why should I prefer one over the other? Why discriminate?
    - markessien 18y ago
      That's not the point. The point is that a structure is being created that has the potential to make the chinese industries so much more productive, that the same system would have to be adopted in the west. And not just there, but all the other emerging economies that are trying to industrialize. They would all have to follow the same system. South East Asia, Africa, South America etc. Now I'm not saying that the income of workers in China is not going to rise - I'm saying that at the moment, there is a big difference, and that gives them a competitive advantage. In china you typically have 3 or more people serving you at one table when you go to a restaurant. That would not be possible in the west because of the high labour cost - in China it's possible because of the wage difference between what is being earned in the restaurant and what the workers earn. Controlling your economy and only buying local goods is not a good idea in my opinion, but when there are new manufacturing processes being used in emerging countries, then you have to be aware of this. I don't believe in protectionism at all, so that's not the point I'm trying to convey.