4 ms·

"This gets repeated a lot" I gave a link to the documents, not to hersay. "who on the Russian side has ever confirmed it" You mean apart from 'nationalists',

"This gets repeated a lot" I gave a link to the documents, not to hersay. "who on the Russian side has ever confirmed it" You mean apart from 'nationalists', 'hardliners' and 'communists'?

mopsi 3y ago
> I gave the link to the documents, not to hersay. It's a speculation that has been categorically refuted by the very persons it mentions. > You mean apart from 'nationalists', 'hardliners' and 'communists'? Apart from people like Putin, who at the time was nowhere near the foreign policy circles, but served as an enforcer for St Petersburg's mayor, collecting protection money and bribes from businesses.
- protomolecule 3y ago
  How can a document be refuted?
  - mopsi 3y ago
    The Soviet minister of foreign affairs has explained that references to "NATO expansion" have been mischaracterized, and that their discussions were limited to placement of US forces in East Germany after reunification, and that no wider discussion about the future of Eastern Europe in NATO ever took place, let alone reached any agreement, because at the time they couldn't have imagined that the USSR would cease to exist in a few years. Both he and his successor find nothing wrong with the fact that most of Central and Eastern Europe eventually joined NATO and see no reason to whine about betrayal like Putin. If anything, they regret that the Europeans and Americans didn't engage more with Russia and didn't pressure it enough towards becoming a civilized country: While the West failed to seize the opportunity and some diplomatic mistakes were made on both sides, the United States and NATO were on the right side of history by admitting new democracies to the Alliance and being willing to find an accommodation with Russia. It was Moscow that returned to its antagonism toward NATO, which has been intensifying ever since. Yeltsin’s chosen successor president, Vladimir Putin, tried to hinder the West with a charm offensive in the early years of the 21 century and even hinted that Russia might join NATO. In the meantime, domestic anti-American and anti-NATO propaganda has continued to gain momentum. Today the Kremlin has left little doubt about its attitude toward the Alliance in words and in deeds. NATO remains the main power to safeguard the liberal world order. It is under attack from autocratic, populist and extremist forces who claim that the organization is outdated. The Kremlin’s champs and chumps in the West portray NATO as a bloc promoting American hegemony, expanding to the East and cornering Russia. It is reassuring however, that the U.S. Congress continues to display firm bipartisan support for NATO. The prospects of a new opening in Russian–NATO relations will depend on the resilience and firmness of the Alliance and on deep changes in Moscow’s domestic and foreign policy. I believe that sooner or later the Russian people will follow the suit of other European nations in finding their national interest in democratic reforms and cooperation with NATO and other Western institutions. https://transatlanticrelations.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/19-Kozyrev.pdf https://transatlanticrelations.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/0...
    - protomolecule 3y ago
      I suggest you study the link I gave. For example, document #30 [0] that gives an answer to the question "who on the Russian side has ever confirmed it?" "On July 1, the delegationhad a meeting with M. Woerner—NATO Secretary General. ... Woerner stressed that the NATO Council and he are against the expansionof NATO (13 out of 16 NATO members support this point of view). In the near future, at his meeting with L. Walesa and the Romanian leader A. Iliescu, he will oppose Poland and Romania joining NATO, and earlier this was stated to Hungary and Czechoslovakia. We should not allow, stated M. Woerner, the isolation of the USSR from the European community." "didn't pressure it enough towards becoming a civilized country" That was rich. [0] https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/document/16144-document-30-memorandum-boris-yeltsin https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/document/16144-document-30-memoran...
      - mopsi 3y ago
        > I suggest you study the link I gave. For example, document #30 [0] that gives an answer to the question "who on the Russian side has ever confirmed it?" There is nothing in the document confirming an eternal commitment to not accept new members into NATO. Until late-1990s, the position of most NATO countries was indeed that Eastern Europe was too underdeveloped and unstable for membership, and the document accurately reflects that. This undermines the narrative of how NATO has always wanted to surround Russia. By the time new members were accepted into NATO almost a decade later, Wörner was long dead, the USSR was long gone, Russia had started its descent into a totalitarian dictatorship, and all 13 opposing countries had changed their position.
        protomolecule 3y ago
        You see, now you are inventing strawmen like "eternal commitment" and "the narrative of how NATO has always wanted to surround Russia". I don't think I can continue this conversation if you are not talking in good faith. "By the time new members were accepted into NATO ... Russia had started its descent into a totalitarian dictatorship" The decision to expand NATO was made in 1997 [0] And by the way, here is a passage from wikipedia on that first round of NATO enlargement [1]: "That year, Russian leaders like Foreign Minister Andrei Kozyrev indicated their country's opposition to NATO enlargement. While Russian President Boris Yeltsin did sign an agreement with NATO in May 1997 that included text referring to new membership, he clearly described NATO expansion as "unacceptable" and a threat to Russian security in his December 1997 National Security Blueprint." And a bit from "What Eltsin heard" [2]: "On December 1, Foreign Minister Kozyrev unexpectedly refused to sign up for the Partnership of Peace; and on December 5, Yeltsin lashed out about NATO at the Budapest summit of the CSCE, in front of a surprised Clinton: “Why are you sowing the seeds of mistrust? ... Europe is in danger of plunging into a cold peace …. History demonstrates that it is a dangerous illusion to suppose that the destinies of continents and of the world community in general can somehow be managed from one single capital.” " [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1997_Madrid_summit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1997_Madrid_summit [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlargement_of_NATO#Visegr%C3%A1d_Group https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlargement_of_NATO#Visegr%C3%... [2] https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/russia-programs/2018-03-16/nato-expansion-what-yeltsin-heard https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/russia-programs/2018...

"This gets repeated a lot" I gave a link to the documents, not to hersay. "who on the Russian side has ever confirmed it" You mean apart from 'nationalists', 'hardliners' and 'communists'?

mopsi 3y ago

> I gave the link to the documents, not to hersay. It's a speculation that has been categorically refuted by the very persons it mentions. > You mean apart from 'nationalists', 'hardliners' and 'communists'? Apart from people like Putin, who at the time was nowhere near the foreign policy circles, but served as an enforcer for St Petersburg's mayor, collecting protection money and bribes from businesses.

protomolecule 3y ago
How can a document be refuted?
- mopsi 3y ago
  The Soviet minister of foreign affairs has explained that references to "NATO expansion" have been mischaracterized, and that their discussions were limited to placement of US forces in East Germany after reunification, and that no wider discussion about the future of Eastern Europe in NATO ever took place, let alone reached any agreement, because at the time they couldn't have imagined that the USSR would cease to exist in a few years. Both he and his successor find nothing wrong with the fact that most of Central and Eastern Europe eventually joined NATO and see no reason to whine about betrayal like Putin. If anything, they regret that the Europeans and Americans didn't engage more with Russia and didn't pressure it enough towards becoming a civilized country: While the West failed to seize the opportunity and some diplomatic mistakes were made on both sides, the United States and NATO were on the right side of history by admitting new democracies to the Alliance and being willing to find an accommodation with Russia. It was Moscow that returned to its antagonism toward NATO, which has been intensifying ever since. Yeltsin’s chosen successor president, Vladimir Putin, tried to hinder the West with a charm offensive in the early years of the 21 century and even hinted that Russia might join NATO. In the meantime, domestic anti-American and anti-NATO propaganda has continued to gain momentum. Today the Kremlin has left little doubt about its attitude toward the Alliance in words and in deeds. NATO remains the main power to safeguard the liberal world order. It is under attack from autocratic, populist and extremist forces who claim that the organization is outdated. The Kremlin’s champs and chumps in the West portray NATO as a bloc promoting American hegemony, expanding to the East and cornering Russia. It is reassuring however, that the U.S. Congress continues to display firm bipartisan support for NATO. The prospects of a new opening in Russian–NATO relations will depend on the resilience and firmness of the Alliance and on deep changes in Moscow’s domestic and foreign policy. I believe that sooner or later the Russian people will follow the suit of other European nations in finding their national interest in democratic reforms and cooperation with NATO and other Western institutions. https://transatlanticrelations.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/19-Kozyrev.pdf https://transatlanticrelations.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/0...
  - protomolecule 3y ago
    I suggest you study the link I gave. For example, document #30 [0] that gives an answer to the question "who on the Russian side has ever confirmed it?" "On July 1, the delegationhad a meeting with M. Woerner—NATO Secretary General. ... Woerner stressed that the NATO Council and he are against the expansionof NATO (13 out of 16 NATO members support this point of view). In the near future, at his meeting with L. Walesa and the Romanian leader A. Iliescu, he will oppose Poland and Romania joining NATO, and earlier this was stated to Hungary and Czechoslovakia. We should not allow, stated M. Woerner, the isolation of the USSR from the European community." "didn't pressure it enough towards becoming a civilized country" That was rich. [0] https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/document/16144-document-30-memorandum-boris-yeltsin https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/document/16144-document-30-memoran...
    - mopsi 3y ago
      > I suggest you study the link I gave. For example, document #30 [0] that gives an answer to the question "who on the Russian side has ever confirmed it?" There is nothing in the document confirming an eternal commitment to not accept new members into NATO. Until late-1990s, the position of most NATO countries was indeed that Eastern Europe was too underdeveloped and unstable for membership, and the document accurately reflects that. This undermines the narrative of how NATO has always wanted to surround Russia. By the time new members were accepted into NATO almost a decade later, Wörner was long dead, the USSR was long gone, Russia had started its descent into a totalitarian dictatorship, and all 13 opposing countries had changed their position.
      - protomolecule 3y ago
        You see, now you are inventing strawmen like "eternal commitment" and "the narrative of how NATO has always wanted to surround Russia". I don't think I can continue this conversation if you are not talking in good faith. "By the time new members were accepted into NATO ... Russia had started its descent into a totalitarian dictatorship" The decision to expand NATO was made in 1997 [0] And by the way, here is a passage from wikipedia on that first round of NATO enlargement [1]: "That year, Russian leaders like Foreign Minister Andrei Kozyrev indicated their country's opposition to NATO enlargement. While Russian President Boris Yeltsin did sign an agreement with NATO in May 1997 that included text referring to new membership, he clearly described NATO expansion as "unacceptable" and a threat to Russian security in his December 1997 National Security Blueprint." And a bit from "What Eltsin heard" [2]: "On December 1, Foreign Minister Kozyrev unexpectedly refused to sign up for the Partnership of Peace; and on December 5, Yeltsin lashed out about NATO at the Budapest summit of the CSCE, in front of a surprised Clinton: “Why are you sowing the seeds of mistrust? ... Europe is in danger of plunging into a cold peace …. History demonstrates that it is a dangerous illusion to suppose that the destinies of continents and of the world community in general can somehow be managed from one single capital.” " [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1997_Madrid_summit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1997_Madrid_summit [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlargement_of_NATO#Visegr%C3%A1d_Group https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlargement_of_NATO#Visegr%C3%... [2] https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/russia-programs/2018-03-16/nato-expansion-what-yeltsin-heard https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/russia-programs/2018...