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Especially with the widespread availability of vapes, which are still pretty bad for you but substantially less so than cigarettes, there's no excuse these days

by mil22 3y ago

Especially with the widespread availability of vapes, which are still pretty bad for you but substantially less so than cigarettes, there's no excuse these days. I am the same way, I will risk getting hit by cars sometimes just to avoid smoke I hate it so much. Even outdoors after a brief exposure it gets lodged in your hair, clothes, and eyes. With the legalization of marijuana in so many places, the problem has become even worse.

metabagel 3y ago
Some people have had serious lung damage due to vaping. I don’t consider it to be safe.
- bequanna 3y ago
  Perfect is the enemy of good. Vaping is absolutely not safe, but smoking cigarettes is likely much more damaging to your health.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- mil22 3y ago
  Totally agree, it definitely isn't safe, and it isn't safe for the person vaping or anyone exposed second-hand. However, the evidence so far does suggest the harm is somewhat less than regular tobacco smoke.
  - radlad 3y ago
    Keep in mind we've been using tobacco for over 10,000 years, yet it was only 75 years ago we learned it could cause cancer. In contrast, we've been using vapes for about 20 years - and they've only been widespread for maybe 10.
    - JPLeRouzic 3y ago
      > we've been using tobacco for over 10,000 years From Wikipedia: The practice is believed to have begun as early as 5000–3000 BC in Mesoamerica and South America. Tobacco was introduced to Eurasia in the late 17th century by European colonists. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tobacco_smoking https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tobacco_smoking
      - radlad 3y ago
        I stand corrected. 5,000 - 7,000 years.
    - mil22 3y ago
      Yes. The long-term health implications of vaping are only just beginning to be understood. If you forced me at gunpoint to either vape or smoke, I'd still choose the vape.
      - radlad 3y ago
        Of course, when not forced to at gunpoint, there is a third option. :-)
  - Cacti 3y ago
    Somewhat less? This is like saying an afternoon in the sun is somewhat less harmful than standing next to nuclear explosion.
- callalex 3y ago
  Some people have had serious drowning incidents while drinking a glass of water, but we don’t ban that.
  - mil22 3y ago
    Water is essential for human survival; vaping is not necessary for human survival or health but rather introduces potentially harmful substances into the body, including nicotine, which is addictive, and other chemicals that have adverse health effects. Serious drowning incidents from drinking water are extremely rare and usually involve underlying medical conditions or very specific circumstances. Conversely, the health risks associated with vaping, including lung injury, addiction, and potential cardiovascular effects, are well-documented and have been observed in a significant portion of users, especially among young people and adolescents. Vaping has been linked to a significant rise in nicotine addiction among teenagers and young adults, often drawn to flavored vape products. This trend threatens to reverse decades of progress in tobacco control and nicotine addiction. Water consumption does not carry a similar public health risk; it does not lead to widespread addiction or serve as a gateway to the consumption of more harmful substances. While water is essential and generally safe, there are still regulations in place to ensure its safety (e.g., water quality standards). The call to regulate or ban vapes stems from a similar public health perspective — protect consumers, especially young ones, from products that have been shown to pose significant health risks. Lastly, equating the act of vaping with drinking water is a false equivalence. The two activities serve different purposes and have vastly different implications for health. While water is necessary for life and generally promotes health, vaping introduces unnecessary risks, particularly to young and vulnerable populations.
- Domenic_S 3y ago
  That was from bootleg THC carts that had adulterated ingredients [0]. In this context we're talking about vaping (nicotine liquid) vs smoking (cigarettes). Vaping is not as safe as inhaling nothing but air. But we do know scientifically that it is substantially safer than smoking [1], despite the (big tobacco-funded) scare campaigns that claim otherwise. In other words, nothing > vaping > smoking. If you don't use nicotine today, don't start. But if you want to get off cigarettes, vaping is a great choice and provably safer. [0] https://www.nbcnews.com/health/vaping/tests-show-bootleg-marijuana-vapes-tainted-hydrogen-cyanide-n1059356 https://www.nbcnews.com/health/vaping/tests-show-bootleg-mar... [1] https://www.kcl.ac.uk/news/vaping-substantially-less-harmful-than-smoking-largest-review-of-its-kind-finds https://www.kcl.ac.uk/news/vaping-substantially-less-harmful...
  - mil22 3y ago
    Some, but not all [1]: "... the remaining 17% reported using only nicotine-containing vaping products... It is believed that the non-THC/CBD vapers who were diagnosed with EVALI were actually suffering from disparate vaping-associated lung diseases caused by different toxins within the aerosols or different host responses to the inhalants." [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10228557/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10228557/
    - Domenic_S 3y ago
      An uncited claim in a summary paper. The CDC recommends not using THC vapes at all because of EVALI, but make no such recommendation about standard nicotine vapes (unless you've never smoked) [0]. [0] https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/basic_information/e-cigarettes/severe-lung-disease.html https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/basic_information/e-cigarettes/s...
  - nkozyra 3y ago
    I'd inject nicotine pouches like Zyn in there, since they've also come up as a new moral panic: nothing > oral/mucousa nicotine > inhaled nicotine > oral/mucousa tobacco > inhaled tobacco
- inejge 3y ago
  Some people have had serious lung damage due to vaping. If that's a reference to a spate of "popcorn lung" cases of THC vapers, where it's suspected that the juice was laced with vitamin E, you might as well say that Tylenol is deadly because someone once spiked it with cyanide†. Don't put junk in the juice, regulate the ingredients. I'm saying this as a non-vaper and non-smoker, if it makes any difference. †I know, I know, acetaminophen _is_ deadly is you overdose on it. That's not what I'm talking about here.
  - mil22 3y ago
    Some, but not all [1]: "... the remaining 17% reported using only nicotine-containing vaping products... It is believed that the non-THC/CBD vapers who were diagnosed with EVALI were actually suffering from disparate vaping-associated lung diseases caused by different toxins within the aerosols or different host responses to the inhalants." Note that many of the toxic chemicals referred to in this paper are normal components of nicotine vape juice, including but not limited to the flavorings, so the comparison to spiking Tylenol with cyanide is not particularly apt. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10228557/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10228557/
    - inejge 3y ago
      The comparison to Tylenol spiking is perfectly apt if you consider the whole category of toxic adulterants as the noxious agent. (I know that THC/vit-E wasn't the totality of cases. You can only go so far without drowning in pedantry.) Moreover, it seems to have been a very North American phenomenon. Europe is quite vape-mad and you can count the number of vape-related lung injuries on one hand.
Nursie 3y ago
> Especially with the widespread availability of vapes Don’t worry, we’re tackling that in Australia! Due to a moral panic, vapes are all set to become harder to purchase than actual tobacco! :facepalm:
- mil22 3y ago
  That's crazy! I personally think both regular tobacco and vapes should be tightly regulated, with tobacco available only to people born before some fixed year (like New Zealand) and vapes restricted the same way or only to existing smokers. Governments worldwide dropped the ball, allowing an epidemic of vaping, with many of the vapers new nicotine addicts who would never have become smokers had there been no vapes.
  - Nursie 3y ago
    Yeah that’s the thing - they massively dropped the ball for several years, the grey market took over, loads of kids started doing it, everybody panicked and now they’re going to be prescription only. Somewhere in that mess there was a path to making them a good way to really squash that last few percent of people that smoke, at least by moving them onto something a little better even if they never quit, but it’s been missed. Even then, I’d understand and support making them as hard to get as tobacco, regulated very similarly so when Bob Smoker goes to the servo (gas station) or smoke mart, he can choose the less harmful and less harmful to others path with little effort. Not now though (well later this year), he has to pay for a doctor’s appointment and get an approved therapeutic device prescribed if he wants to vape. Or he can buy cigarettes at the corner. And the schoolyard mom grapevine apparently has it that vaping is worse than smoking. The clusterfuck is complete, and a great health opportunity was missed. (For the record I neither vape nor smoke, but I did use the former to quit the latter a little over 10 years ago) (Edit - oh that thing in New Zealand? The new government scrapped it, I think for reasons of tax revenue. One of the most naked money > lives decisions I’ve seen in recent years)
- pengaru 3y ago
  already the case in SF
Am4TIfIsER0ppos 3y ago
Tobacco smells better than those sickly sweet vapes and I'd rather hang out with smokers than vapers.

by mil22 3y ago

metabagel 3y ago

Some people have had serious lung damage due to vaping. I don’t consider it to be safe.

bequanna 3y ago
Perfect is the enemy of good. Vaping is absolutely not safe, but smoking cigarettes is likely much more damaging to your health.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
mil22 3y ago
Totally agree, it definitely isn't safe, and it isn't safe for the person vaping or anyone exposed second-hand. However, the evidence so far does suggest the harm is somewhat less than regular tobacco smoke.
- radlad 3y ago
  Keep in mind we've been using tobacco for over 10,000 years, yet it was only 75 years ago we learned it could cause cancer. In contrast, we've been using vapes for about 20 years - and they've only been widespread for maybe 10.
  - JPLeRouzic 3y ago
    > we've been using tobacco for over 10,000 years From Wikipedia: The practice is believed to have begun as early as 5000–3000 BC in Mesoamerica and South America. Tobacco was introduced to Eurasia in the late 17th century by European colonists. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tobacco_smoking https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tobacco_smoking
    - radlad 3y ago
      I stand corrected. 5,000 - 7,000 years.
  - mil22 3y ago
    Yes. The long-term health implications of vaping are only just beginning to be understood. If you forced me at gunpoint to either vape or smoke, I'd still choose the vape.
    - radlad 3y ago
      Of course, when not forced to at gunpoint, there is a third option. :-)
- Cacti 3y ago
  Somewhat less? This is like saying an afternoon in the sun is somewhat less harmful than standing next to nuclear explosion.
callalex 3y ago
Some people have had serious drowning incidents while drinking a glass of water, but we don’t ban that.
- mil22 3y ago
  Water is essential for human survival; vaping is not necessary for human survival or health but rather introduces potentially harmful substances into the body, including nicotine, which is addictive, and other chemicals that have adverse health effects. Serious drowning incidents from drinking water are extremely rare and usually involve underlying medical conditions or very specific circumstances. Conversely, the health risks associated with vaping, including lung injury, addiction, and potential cardiovascular effects, are well-documented and have been observed in a significant portion of users, especially among young people and adolescents. Vaping has been linked to a significant rise in nicotine addiction among teenagers and young adults, often drawn to flavored vape products. This trend threatens to reverse decades of progress in tobacco control and nicotine addiction. Water consumption does not carry a similar public health risk; it does not lead to widespread addiction or serve as a gateway to the consumption of more harmful substances. While water is essential and generally safe, there are still regulations in place to ensure its safety (e.g., water quality standards). The call to regulate or ban vapes stems from a similar public health perspective — protect consumers, especially young ones, from products that have been shown to pose significant health risks. Lastly, equating the act of vaping with drinking water is a false equivalence. The two activities serve different purposes and have vastly different implications for health. While water is necessary for life and generally promotes health, vaping introduces unnecessary risks, particularly to young and vulnerable populations.
Domenic_S 3y ago
That was from bootleg THC carts that had adulterated ingredients [0]. In this context we're talking about vaping (nicotine liquid) vs smoking (cigarettes). Vaping is not as safe as inhaling nothing but air. But we do know scientifically that it is substantially safer than smoking [1], despite the (big tobacco-funded) scare campaigns that claim otherwise. In other words, nothing > vaping > smoking. If you don't use nicotine today, don't start. But if you want to get off cigarettes, vaping is a great choice and provably safer. [0] https://www.nbcnews.com/health/vaping/tests-show-bootleg-marijuana-vapes-tainted-hydrogen-cyanide-n1059356 https://www.nbcnews.com/health/vaping/tests-show-bootleg-mar... [1] https://www.kcl.ac.uk/news/vaping-substantially-less-harmful-than-smoking-largest-review-of-its-kind-finds https://www.kcl.ac.uk/news/vaping-substantially-less-harmful...
- mil22 3y ago
  Some, but not all [1]: "... the remaining 17% reported using only nicotine-containing vaping products... It is believed that the non-THC/CBD vapers who were diagnosed with EVALI were actually suffering from disparate vaping-associated lung diseases caused by different toxins within the aerosols or different host responses to the inhalants." [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10228557/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10228557/
  - Domenic_S 3y ago
    An uncited claim in a summary paper. The CDC recommends not using THC vapes at all because of EVALI, but make no such recommendation about standard nicotine vapes (unless you've never smoked) [0]. [0] https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/basic_information/e-cigarettes/severe-lung-disease.html https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/basic_information/e-cigarettes/s...
- nkozyra 3y ago
  I'd inject nicotine pouches like Zyn in there, since they've also come up as a new moral panic: nothing > oral/mucousa nicotine > inhaled nicotine > oral/mucousa tobacco > inhaled tobacco
inejge 3y ago
Some people have had serious lung damage due to vaping. If that's a reference to a spate of "popcorn lung" cases of THC vapers, where it's suspected that the juice was laced with vitamin E, you might as well say that Tylenol is deadly because someone once spiked it with cyanide†. Don't put junk in the juice, regulate the ingredients. I'm saying this as a non-vaper and non-smoker, if it makes any difference. †I know, I know, acetaminophen _is_ deadly is you overdose on it. That's not what I'm talking about here.
- mil22 3y ago
  Some, but not all [1]: "... the remaining 17% reported using only nicotine-containing vaping products... It is believed that the non-THC/CBD vapers who were diagnosed with EVALI were actually suffering from disparate vaping-associated lung diseases caused by different toxins within the aerosols or different host responses to the inhalants." Note that many of the toxic chemicals referred to in this paper are normal components of nicotine vape juice, including but not limited to the flavorings, so the comparison to spiking Tylenol with cyanide is not particularly apt. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10228557/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10228557/
  - inejge 3y ago
    The comparison to Tylenol spiking is perfectly apt if you consider the whole category of toxic adulterants as the noxious agent. (I know that THC/vit-E wasn't the totality of cases. You can only go so far without drowning in pedantry.) Moreover, it seems to have been a very North American phenomenon. Europe is quite vape-mad and you can count the number of vape-related lung injuries on one hand.

Nursie 3y ago

> Especially with the widespread availability of vapes Don’t worry, we’re tackling that in Australia! Due to a moral panic, vapes are all set to become harder to purchase than actual tobacco! :facepalm:

mil22 3y ago
That's crazy! I personally think both regular tobacco and vapes should be tightly regulated, with tobacco available only to people born before some fixed year (like New Zealand) and vapes restricted the same way or only to existing smokers. Governments worldwide dropped the ball, allowing an epidemic of vaping, with many of the vapers new nicotine addicts who would never have become smokers had there been no vapes.
- Nursie 3y ago
  Yeah that’s the thing - they massively dropped the ball for several years, the grey market took over, loads of kids started doing it, everybody panicked and now they’re going to be prescription only. Somewhere in that mess there was a path to making them a good way to really squash that last few percent of people that smoke, at least by moving them onto something a little better even if they never quit, but it’s been missed. Even then, I’d understand and support making them as hard to get as tobacco, regulated very similarly so when Bob Smoker goes to the servo (gas station) or smoke mart, he can choose the less harmful and less harmful to others path with little effort. Not now though (well later this year), he has to pay for a doctor’s appointment and get an approved therapeutic device prescribed if he wants to vape. Or he can buy cigarettes at the corner. And the schoolyard mom grapevine apparently has it that vaping is worse than smoking. The clusterfuck is complete, and a great health opportunity was missed. (For the record I neither vape nor smoke, but I did use the former to quit the latter a little over 10 years ago) (Edit - oh that thing in New Zealand? The new government scrapped it, I think for reasons of tax revenue. One of the most naked money > lives decisions I’ve seen in recent years)
pengaru 3y ago
already the case in SF

Am4TIfIsER0ppos 3y ago

Tobacco smells better than those sickly sweet vapes and I'd rather hang out with smokers than vapers.