4 ms·

"Ulterior motives" like what?

actionfromafar 3y ago
Having a veto on who gets in the alliance, gathering intelligence, who knows? Not me. I just don't think Russia joining NATO is an apparent slam dunk success. Maybe it would have been great, we can never know for sure, but I can understand the suspicion.
- protomolecule 3y ago
  "Having a veto on who gets in the alliance, gathering intelligence" With what goal?
  - actionfromafar 3y ago
    Attack Ukraine? But on the other hand, joining NATO could have changed the course of history for the better, so such plans may never have come into motion. This is all counterfactual. There was deep mistrust on all sides and it didn't happen.
    - protomolecule 3y ago
      Attack Ukraine why?
      - actionfromafar 3y ago
        Read Putins "scholarly article".
        protomolecule 3y ago
        I haven't read it. What do you mean specifically?
        Qwertious 3y ago
        Not the parent commenter, but IIRC in that document Putin expresses an ideological belief that Ukraine is inherently a part of Russia and must be returned.
        protomolecule 3y ago
        And how do you imagine it? Being in the same security alliance as Ukraine and having free trade agreement and having good relations with the West, he would attack the Ukraine to get a piece of land? Nobody in Russia would've supported such an unthinkable war. It took a coup in Kiev in 2014, burning people alive in Odessa, all the slogans 'Hang the Russians', dozens of streets named after Nazi collaborators, the war of the new Ukrainian government on the separatists in the East and eight years for people in Russia to start thinking that not all Ukrainians are brothers.
        falserum 3y ago
        Reminder: to start 2014 events, you need a president who rejects europe at the last second and sells ukraine to russia.
        protomolecule 3y ago
        "Europe is partly to blame for the crisis in Ukraine although this is no excuse for Russian behavior towards the former Soviet republic, German Chancellor Angela Merkel's deputy said on Wednesday. The tone struck by Vice Chancellor Sigmar Gabriel, head of the Social Democrats (SPD), contrasts with that of conservative Merkel who has pinned responsibility on Russia for exacerbating the crisis, which has soured ties between Russia and the West. "Certainly, the European Union has also made mistakes, although this does not justify Russia's behavior," Gabriel told the German daily Rheinische Post. "It was certainly not smart to create the impression in Ukraine that it had to decide between Russia and the EU," the Economy Minister added." [0] [0] https://www.newsweek.com/german-official-says-it-was-wrong-make-ukraine-pick-between-eu-and-russia-251038 https://www.newsweek.com/german-official-says-it-was-wrong-m...

Having a veto on who gets in the alliance, gathering intelligence, who knows? Not me. I just don't think Russia joining NATO is an apparent slam dunk success. Maybe it would have been great, we can never know for sure, but I can understand the suspicion.

protomolecule 3y ago
"Having a veto on who gets in the alliance, gathering intelligence" With what goal?
- actionfromafar 3y ago
  Attack Ukraine? But on the other hand, joining NATO could have changed the course of history for the better, so such plans may never have come into motion. This is all counterfactual. There was deep mistrust on all sides and it didn't happen.
  - protomolecule 3y ago
    Attack Ukraine why?
    - actionfromafar 3y ago
      Read Putins "scholarly article".
      - protomolecule 3y ago
        I haven't read it. What do you mean specifically?
        Qwertious 3y ago
        Not the parent commenter, but IIRC in that document Putin expresses an ideological belief that Ukraine is inherently a part of Russia and must be returned.
        protomolecule 3y ago
        And how do you imagine it? Being in the same security alliance as Ukraine and having free trade agreement and having good relations with the West, he would attack the Ukraine to get a piece of land? Nobody in Russia would've supported such an unthinkable war. It took a coup in Kiev in 2014, burning people alive in Odessa, all the slogans 'Hang the Russians', dozens of streets named after Nazi collaborators, the war of the new Ukrainian government on the separatists in the East and eight years for people in Russia to start thinking that not all Ukrainians are brothers.
        falserum 3y ago
        Reminder: to start 2014 events, you need a president who rejects europe at the last second and sells ukraine to russia.
        protomolecule 3y ago
        "Europe is partly to blame for the crisis in Ukraine although this is no excuse for Russian behavior towards the former Soviet republic, German Chancellor Angela Merkel's deputy said on Wednesday. The tone struck by Vice Chancellor Sigmar Gabriel, head of the Social Democrats (SPD), contrasts with that of conservative Merkel who has pinned responsibility on Russia for exacerbating the crisis, which has soured ties between Russia and the West. "Certainly, the European Union has also made mistakes, although this does not justify Russia's behavior," Gabriel told the German daily Rheinische Post. "It was certainly not smart to create the impression in Ukraine that it had to decide between Russia and the EU," the Economy Minister added." [0] [0] https://www.newsweek.com/german-official-says-it-was-wrong-make-ukraine-pick-between-eu-and-russia-251038 https://www.newsweek.com/german-official-says-it-was-wrong-m...