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> High taxes with no matching value behind them That is not the case for Germany. We have - even with all its shortcomings - a decent education system that's l

> High taxes with no matching value behind them That is not the case for Germany. We have - even with all its shortcomings - a decent education system that's largely free and accessible for everyone, a decent healthcare system, a decent public transport system on local, regional and federal system, and a very decent social security network that covers unemployment, pension and elderly care. The US in contrast has neither: parents have to pay five digits worth of money just for the birth of a child, pay through their nose for insurance, public schools are horribly underfunded, universities require six digits worth of debt, there's no high-speed rail worth the name, if you're unemployed you better have some savings, you have to take care about your 401k, and the best way if you need elderly care is to off yourself with a gun. The only thing where the US actually is in front of Germany is allowing you to get a gun to off yourself. Here in Germany, it's almost impossible to own a gun, so people love to off themselves by jumping in front of a train, creating a huge mess for everyone else.

greenavocado 3y ago
INOVA in Northern Virginia charges $3000 for an uncomplicated vaginal birth. They have a code which rolls up many services into that code. There are additional in-hospital expenses such as the newborn hearing test which aggregate to about $400. If you have insurance your maximum cost out of pocket for the calendar year is between 5 and 15 thousand dollars (insurance covers everything above it). If you can't pay it all at once there are charities and payment plans you can discuss with the provider. If you don't have insurance you can possibly negotiate the bill down sometimes drastically or if necessary declare Chapter 7 or 13 bankruptcy if you really can't pay the bills. Bankruptcy sounds scarier than it really is. Chapter 7 bankruptcy lasts about 3 months and Chapter 13 bankruptcy lasts about 5 years during which you pay everything above your normal average household expenses to a special account for the creditors. Medical debt is unsecured debt and can be defaulted on and purged by the court following bankruptcy proceedings. Bankruptcy is much more problematic in Europe for the individual. Americans can keep their assets in a Chapter 13 bankruptcy. Health insurance in America costs between $500-$1000 a month for an entire family.
- lupire 3y ago
  Why do I pay $25K/yr for my family? Is yours high deductible?
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - greenavocado 3y ago
    6,000 dollar deductible per person with total 15,000 dollar out of pocket maximum for the family. My current health plan is better because my company found a partner that aggregates many smaller companies to get better rates from insurers. Before this I was uninsured and would call many different providers to negotiate the best cash price for various procedures such as wrist MRI with contrast. I got cash quotes ranging from $850 to $3500 and got exactly what I needed from a local provider for $850. I called up several providers in Canada and they offered similar cash prices (on the low end) so it wasn't worth the 8 hour drive each way.
- dkekenflxlf 3y ago
  500-1000 USD per month for a WHOLE family is fucking cheap!? In Germany, i'm paying more than 1150€ per month as single (and im not privately insured but publicly)
  - pflenker 3y ago
    1) I doubt that you pay as much. I pay less than half of that and have a comfortable salary. Did you include the "Arbeitgeberanteil" (which is not part of what you are paying)? 2) You can't easily extrapolate that number to a whole family. Kids are usually insured for free if the higher-earning parent is not privately insured.
    - shasts 3y ago
      This is quite possible, right? For eg: if you work for a Swiss or US employer and make more than 69k(?), say 100k, as a freelancer, and have a family, you have to pay around 14%(upper limit somewhere around 1000) of the income as health insurance contribution. I think it is costly. It is difficult to digest for me that the health insurance costs more than housing.
Nimitz14 3y ago
Switzerland does everything better than Germany with far less taxes. And since we're trading anecdotes I've found US Healthcare to be the best compared to the 3 european countries I've lived in before.
- mschuster91 3y ago
  > Switzerland does everything better than Germany with far less taxes. They have the advantage that the country is so small. Us Germans however have to deal with the fact that we have the 5th largest country of Europe of which a lot of is settled and has to be supported by the entire population. And in any case, Swiss taxes aren't that much lower than Germany's either - average tax load in the country is ~29% [1], Germany is at 33.9% [2]. Switzerland's total load may be even higher because the German figure includes social security payments, Statista for Switzerland is only taxes. [1] https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/1176146/umfrage/geschaetzte-steuerbelastung-von-natuerlichen-personen-in-der-schweiz-nach-kantonen/# https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/1176146/umfra... [2] https://www.bpb.de/kurz-knapp/zahlen-und-fakten/soziale-situation-in-deutschland/61896/steuer-und-abgabenlast-von-durchschnittsverdienern/ https://www.bpb.de/kurz-knapp/zahlen-und-fakten/soziale-situ...
  - Nimitz14 3y ago
    You know Switzerland is all hilly or mountainy right? Building infrastructure is inherently much harder and more expensive and yet Switzerland does a much better job of it. Switzerland is also actually more diverse with it having 3 distinct languages. The federalization via cantons is smart and works well. I'm certain your two sources are not measuring the same thing. Swiss taxes are much lower. Median income in Germany is 43k which results in a tax rate of 34% in bawu. Median income in Switzerland is 78k, that in Zürich gives a tax rate of roughly 12% (!!!). Of course in Switzerland all health insurance is private so you end up having to pay more but this does not increase with more income! Anyways the idea that the tax burden is the same is completely laughable.
- skeeter2020 3y ago
  your second point strikes at the crux: On the whole, the US sucks. At the top margin, it's the best in the world.
jandrewrogers 3y ago
The US actually has a good pension system relative to other developed countries. Retirement plans like 401k, IRA, etc are in addition to the pension system, they don't replace it, and are frequently superior to their European counterparts both in scope and flexibility. There is plenty to complain about but pensions and retirement is one area that the US does comparatively well.
skeeter2020 3y ago
My initial reaction is - then why is the US leading in so many areas, if based on your chracterization it's such a laggard? I'd argue it has the best in all categories, it's just not close to even distributed. "Decent" is completely inadequate for education, healthcare and transportation. These are far too important for " good enough, usually" solutions.
Beijinger 3y ago
"a decent education system that's largely free and accessible for everyone" I give your Universities a 2-3 (On a scale 1 Top, 5 fail). High schools are getting worse and worse due to the immigrants. So you would want to send your kid to a school without many immigrants, mainly due to language barriers. "a decent healthcare system" Again, I give you a 2-3. More and more people are sucking services, fewer people pay in. Hey, alone 1 Million Ukrainians are insured, while less than 25% have a job. How long do you wait to see a specialist? >6 months! "a decent public transport system on local, regional and federal system" Again grade 2-3. You have a functioning public transport system. But ask Switzerland what they think about it. Or look at China if you want to learn something about bullet trains. "and a very decent social security network that covers unemployment, pension and elderly care." Is on the brink of collapse. Pensions are great. For state employees. The rest gets retirement benefits. They are compared to the EU very low. I don't have health insurance by the way. Germany has to take care of so many immigrants. Nothing left for me. And try to compete with them to find an apartment. The government pays for them. And the government is never late with payments, hence landlords prefer this.
- Scharkenberg 3y ago
  Can you cite your sources? This literally sounds like regurgitated shit from far-right politicians rather than thought-out analysis based on real statistics. In fact I would go so far as to suspect astroturfing.
  - Beijinger 3y ago
    Yes sure. For German articles please use google translate. 1. a) 0 Universities among the top 10: https://www.timeshighereducation.com/student/best-universities/best-universities-germany https://www.timeshighereducation.com/student/best-universiti... (In most other rankings, German universities rank much worse) b) sinking high school performance: https://www.oecd.org/publication/pisa-2022-results/country-notes/germany-1a2cf137/ https://www.oecd.org/publication/pisa-2022-results/country-n... The collapse coincides with the arrival of refugees under Merkel.... c) Many immigrants in school. Hint: You can't teach math or chemistry if the majority of the kids don't speak German https://www.spiegel.de/spiegel/integration-an-manchen-schulen-bleiben-migrantenkinder-fast-unter-sich-a-1200736.html https://www.spiegel.de/spiegel/integration-an-manchen-schule... 2. a) Currently don't find a better article. Biggest problem compared to China. Germany has the same tracks for bullet trains, local trains and freight trains. Often the bullet trains run a 120 or 160 km/h https://www.businessinsider.de/tech/warum-es-ultraschnelle-zuege-wie-in-frankreich-oder-asien-nie-in-deutschland-geben-wird-2018-4/ https://www.businessinsider.de/tech/warum-es-ultraschnelle-z... b) Switzerland complaining that German late trains destroying their time tables: https://www.focus.de/finanzen/news/schweizer-experte-droht-deutscher-bahn-werden-mehr-unpuenktliche-zuege-stoppen_id_199819379.html https://www.focus.de/finanzen/news/schweizer-experte-droht-d... 3.) a) Waiting for several months (around 6, based on own experience) to see a specialist: https://www.sr.de/sr/sr3/themen/panorama/saarland_warten_auf_den_arzttermin_100.html https://www.sr.de/sr/sr3/themen/panorama/saarland_warten_auf... b) Retirement, as percentage of former income, EU comparison: https://www.merkur.de/leben/geld/deutschland-rente-vergleich-europa-netto-lohn-prozentual-renteneintritt-zr-91775933.html https://www.merkur.de/leben/geld/deutschland-rente-vergleich... Forgot the last point: 4. Examples https://www.bw24.de/baden-wuerttemberg/neid-debatte-vermieter-praemie-baden-wuerttemberg-wohnung-angebot-ukraine-fluechtlinge-zr-91516735.html https://www.bw24.de/baden-wuerttemberg/neid-debatte-vermiete... https://www.deutschlandfunk.de/fluechtlinge-dubiose-geschaefte-mit-der-not-100.html https://www.deutschlandfunk.de/fluechtlinge-dubiose-geschaef... And personal experience from friends of mine who are landlords.

greenavocado 3y ago

INOVA in Northern Virginia charges $3000 for an uncomplicated vaginal birth. They have a code which rolls up many services into that code. There are additional in-hospital expenses such as the newborn hearing test which aggregate to about $400. If you have insurance your maximum cost out of pocket for the calendar year is between 5 and 15 thousand dollars (insurance covers everything above it). If you can't pay it all at once there are charities and payment plans you can discuss with the provider. If you don't have insurance you can possibly negotiate the bill down sometimes drastically or if necessary declare Chapter 7 or 13 bankruptcy if you really can't pay the bills. Bankruptcy sounds scarier than it really is. Chapter 7 bankruptcy lasts about 3 months and Chapter 13 bankruptcy lasts about 5 years during which you pay everything above your normal average household expenses to a special account for the creditors. Medical debt is unsecured debt and can be defaulted on and purged by the court following bankruptcy proceedings. Bankruptcy is much more problematic in Europe for the individual. Americans can keep their assets in a Chapter 13 bankruptcy. Health insurance in America costs between $500-$1000 a month for an entire family.

lupire 3y ago
Why do I pay $25K/yr for my family? Is yours high deductible?
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- greenavocado 3y ago
  6,000 dollar deductible per person with total 15,000 dollar out of pocket maximum for the family. My current health plan is better because my company found a partner that aggregates many smaller companies to get better rates from insurers. Before this I was uninsured and would call many different providers to negotiate the best cash price for various procedures such as wrist MRI with contrast. I got cash quotes ranging from $850 to $3500 and got exactly what I needed from a local provider for $850. I called up several providers in Canada and they offered similar cash prices (on the low end) so it wasn't worth the 8 hour drive each way.
dkekenflxlf 3y ago
500-1000 USD per month for a WHOLE family is fucking cheap!? In Germany, i'm paying more than 1150€ per month as single (and im not privately insured but publicly)
- pflenker 3y ago
  1) I doubt that you pay as much. I pay less than half of that and have a comfortable salary. Did you include the "Arbeitgeberanteil" (which is not part of what you are paying)? 2) You can't easily extrapolate that number to a whole family. Kids are usually insured for free if the higher-earning parent is not privately insured.
  - shasts 3y ago
    This is quite possible, right? For eg: if you work for a Swiss or US employer and make more than 69k(?), say 100k, as a freelancer, and have a family, you have to pay around 14%(upper limit somewhere around 1000) of the income as health insurance contribution. I think it is costly. It is difficult to digest for me that the health insurance costs more than housing.

Nimitz14 3y ago

Switzerland does everything better than Germany with far less taxes. And since we're trading anecdotes I've found US Healthcare to be the best compared to the 3 european countries I've lived in before.

mschuster91 3y ago
> Switzerland does everything better than Germany with far less taxes. They have the advantage that the country is so small. Us Germans however have to deal with the fact that we have the 5th largest country of Europe of which a lot of is settled and has to be supported by the entire population. And in any case, Swiss taxes aren't that much lower than Germany's either - average tax load in the country is ~29% [1], Germany is at 33.9% [2]. Switzerland's total load may be even higher because the German figure includes social security payments, Statista for Switzerland is only taxes. [1] https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/1176146/umfrage/geschaetzte-steuerbelastung-von-natuerlichen-personen-in-der-schweiz-nach-kantonen/# https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/1176146/umfra... [2] https://www.bpb.de/kurz-knapp/zahlen-und-fakten/soziale-situation-in-deutschland/61896/steuer-und-abgabenlast-von-durchschnittsverdienern/ https://www.bpb.de/kurz-knapp/zahlen-und-fakten/soziale-situ...
- Nimitz14 3y ago
  You know Switzerland is all hilly or mountainy right? Building infrastructure is inherently much harder and more expensive and yet Switzerland does a much better job of it. Switzerland is also actually more diverse with it having 3 distinct languages. The federalization via cantons is smart and works well. I'm certain your two sources are not measuring the same thing. Swiss taxes are much lower. Median income in Germany is 43k which results in a tax rate of 34% in bawu. Median income in Switzerland is 78k, that in Zürich gives a tax rate of roughly 12% (!!!). Of course in Switzerland all health insurance is private so you end up having to pay more but this does not increase with more income! Anyways the idea that the tax burden is the same is completely laughable.
skeeter2020 3y ago
your second point strikes at the crux: On the whole, the US sucks. At the top margin, it's the best in the world.

jandrewrogers 3y ago

The US actually has a good pension system relative to other developed countries. Retirement plans like 401k, IRA, etc are in addition to the pension system, they don't replace it, and are frequently superior to their European counterparts both in scope and flexibility. There is plenty to complain about but pensions and retirement is one area that the US does comparatively well.

skeeter2020 3y ago

My initial reaction is - then why is the US leading in so many areas, if based on your chracterization it's such a laggard? I'd argue it has the best in all categories, it's just not close to even distributed. "Decent" is completely inadequate for education, healthcare and transportation. These are far too important for " good enough, usually" solutions.

Beijinger 3y ago

"a decent education system that's largely free and accessible for everyone" I give your Universities a 2-3 (On a scale 1 Top, 5 fail). High schools are getting worse and worse due to the immigrants. So you would want to send your kid to a school without many immigrants, mainly due to language barriers. "a decent healthcare system" Again, I give you a 2-3. More and more people are sucking services, fewer people pay in. Hey, alone 1 Million Ukrainians are insured, while less than 25% have a job. How long do you wait to see a specialist? >6 months! "a decent public transport system on local, regional and federal system" Again grade 2-3. You have a functioning public transport system. But ask Switzerland what they think about it. Or look at China if you want to learn something about bullet trains. "and a very decent social security network that covers unemployment, pension and elderly care." Is on the brink of collapse. Pensions are great. For state employees. The rest gets retirement benefits. They are compared to the EU very low. I don't have health insurance by the way. Germany has to take care of so many immigrants. Nothing left for me. And try to compete with them to find an apartment. The government pays for them. And the government is never late with payments, hence landlords prefer this.

Scharkenberg 3y ago
Can you cite your sources? This literally sounds like regurgitated shit from far-right politicians rather than thought-out analysis based on real statistics. In fact I would go so far as to suspect astroturfing.
- Beijinger 3y ago
  Yes sure. For German articles please use google translate. 1. a) 0 Universities among the top 10: https://www.timeshighereducation.com/student/best-universities/best-universities-germany https://www.timeshighereducation.com/student/best-universiti... (In most other rankings, German universities rank much worse) b) sinking high school performance: https://www.oecd.org/publication/pisa-2022-results/country-notes/germany-1a2cf137/ https://www.oecd.org/publication/pisa-2022-results/country-n... The collapse coincides with the arrival of refugees under Merkel.... c) Many immigrants in school. Hint: You can't teach math or chemistry if the majority of the kids don't speak German https://www.spiegel.de/spiegel/integration-an-manchen-schulen-bleiben-migrantenkinder-fast-unter-sich-a-1200736.html https://www.spiegel.de/spiegel/integration-an-manchen-schule... 2. a) Currently don't find a better article. Biggest problem compared to China. Germany has the same tracks for bullet trains, local trains and freight trains. Often the bullet trains run a 120 or 160 km/h https://www.businessinsider.de/tech/warum-es-ultraschnelle-zuege-wie-in-frankreich-oder-asien-nie-in-deutschland-geben-wird-2018-4/ https://www.businessinsider.de/tech/warum-es-ultraschnelle-z... b) Switzerland complaining that German late trains destroying their time tables: https://www.focus.de/finanzen/news/schweizer-experte-droht-deutscher-bahn-werden-mehr-unpuenktliche-zuege-stoppen_id_199819379.html https://www.focus.de/finanzen/news/schweizer-experte-droht-d... 3.) a) Waiting for several months (around 6, based on own experience) to see a specialist: https://www.sr.de/sr/sr3/themen/panorama/saarland_warten_auf_den_arzttermin_100.html https://www.sr.de/sr/sr3/themen/panorama/saarland_warten_auf... b) Retirement, as percentage of former income, EU comparison: https://www.merkur.de/leben/geld/deutschland-rente-vergleich-europa-netto-lohn-prozentual-renteneintritt-zr-91775933.html https://www.merkur.de/leben/geld/deutschland-rente-vergleich... Forgot the last point: 4. Examples https://www.bw24.de/baden-wuerttemberg/neid-debatte-vermieter-praemie-baden-wuerttemberg-wohnung-angebot-ukraine-fluechtlinge-zr-91516735.html https://www.bw24.de/baden-wuerttemberg/neid-debatte-vermiete... https://www.deutschlandfunk.de/fluechtlinge-dubiose-geschaefte-mit-der-not-100.html https://www.deutschlandfunk.de/fluechtlinge-dubiose-geschaef... And personal experience from friends of mine who are landlords.