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"the Russians need to overthrow Putin, Xi in China, and we need to elect peace hawks in places that have democracy." We overthrew communists in 1991, USSR crum

"the Russians need to overthrow Putin, Xi in China, and we need to elect peace hawks in places that have democracy." We overthrew communists in 1991, USSR crumbled, in 1992 Pentagon declared that America's "first objective is to prevent the re-emergence of a new rival" [0] and 17 years later NATO, after multiple rounds of expansion, announced that it would expand into Georgia and the Ukraine [1] despite all the promises given by Western leaders [2]. The trust between Russia and the collective West will not be rebuild for a very long time. [0] https://www.nytimes.com/1992/03/08/world/excerpts-from-pentagon-s-plan-prevent-the-re-emergence-of-a-new-rival.html https://www.nytimes.com/1992/03/08/world/excerpts-from-penta... [1] https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/official_texts_8443.htm https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/official_texts_8443.htm [2] https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/russia-programs/2017-12-12/nato-expansion-what-gorbachev-heard-western-leaders-early https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/russia-programs/2017...

mopsi 3y ago
> despite all the promises given by Western leaders This gets repeated a lot, but who on the Russian side has ever confirmed it? Many people from that time are still around. Both the USSR's last minister of foreign affairs (1985-1990) and the first Russian minister of foreign affairs (1990-1996) have called that bullshit, with the latter adding in a recent interview that people believing this are "chumps and useful idiots"[1]. [1] https://newlinesmag.com/reportage/russias-ex-foreign-minister-on-his-totalitarian-country/ https://newlinesmag.com/reportage/russias-ex-foreign-ministe...
- protomolecule 3y ago
  "This gets repeated a lot" I gave a link to the documents, not to hersay. "who on the Russian side has ever confirmed it" You mean apart from 'nationalists', 'hardliners' and 'communists'?
  - mopsi 3y ago
    > I gave the link to the documents, not to hersay. It's a speculation that has been categorically refuted by the very persons it mentions. > You mean apart from 'nationalists', 'hardliners' and 'communists'? Apart from people like Putin, who at the time was nowhere near the foreign policy circles, but served as an enforcer for St Petersburg's mayor, collecting protection money and bribes from businesses.
    - protomolecule 3y ago
      How can a document be refuted?
      - mopsi 3y ago
        The Soviet minister of foreign affairs has explained that references to "NATO expansion" have been mischaracterized, and that their discussions were limited to placement of US forces in East Germany after reunification, and that no wider discussion about the future of Eastern Europe in NATO ever took place, let alone reached any agreement, because at the time they couldn't have imagined that the USSR would cease to exist in a few years. Both he and his successor find nothing wrong with the fact that most of Central and Eastern Europe eventually joined NATO and see no reason to whine about betrayal like Putin. If anything, they regret that the Europeans and Americans didn't engage more with Russia and didn't pressure it enough towards becoming a civilized country: While the West failed to seize the opportunity and some diplomatic mistakes were made on both sides, the United States and NATO were on the right side of history by admitting new democracies to the Alliance and being willing to find an accommodation with Russia. It was Moscow that returned to its antagonism toward NATO, which has been intensifying ever since. Yeltsin’s chosen successor president, Vladimir Putin, tried to hinder the West with a charm offensive in the early years of the 21 century and even hinted that Russia might join NATO. In the meantime, domestic anti-American and anti-NATO propaganda has continued to gain momentum. Today the Kremlin has left little doubt about its attitude toward the Alliance in words and in deeds. NATO remains the main power to safeguard the liberal world order. It is under attack from autocratic, populist and extremist forces who claim that the organization is outdated. The Kremlin’s champs and chumps in the West portray NATO as a bloc promoting American hegemony, expanding to the East and cornering Russia. It is reassuring however, that the U.S. Congress continues to display firm bipartisan support for NATO. The prospects of a new opening in Russian–NATO relations will depend on the resilience and firmness of the Alliance and on deep changes in Moscow’s domestic and foreign policy. I believe that sooner or later the Russian people will follow the suit of other European nations in finding their national interest in democratic reforms and cooperation with NATO and other Western institutions. https://transatlanticrelations.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/19-Kozyrev.pdf https://transatlanticrelations.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/0...
lpcvoid 3y ago
Even if you where right, all of this doesn't matter if sovereign nations decide they don't want to deal with russian threats, oligarchy/corruption and oppression anymore by joining NATO. I am happy they did and I think Europe's future is brighter if we stand together against the darkness that is russia.
mlindner 3y ago
There's never been promises to not expand NATO, let alone any signed agreements.
walteweiss 3y ago
If you ever read ‘NATO Expanded’ it’s a Russian narrative. NATO never expanded, its members ask to join NATO because they don’t want their sovereign states to be occupied by barbarians as it happened with Ukraine’s east. Or they don’t want to be just bombed, as it happened with basically every place in Ukraine.

mopsi 3y ago

> despite all the promises given by Western leaders This gets repeated a lot, but who on the Russian side has ever confirmed it? Many people from that time are still around. Both the USSR's last minister of foreign affairs (1985-1990) and the first Russian minister of foreign affairs (1990-1996) have called that bullshit, with the latter adding in a recent interview that people believing this are "chumps and useful idiots"[1]. [1] https://newlinesmag.com/reportage/russias-ex-foreign-minister-on-his-totalitarian-country/ https://newlinesmag.com/reportage/russias-ex-foreign-ministe...

protomolecule 3y ago
"This gets repeated a lot" I gave a link to the documents, not to hersay. "who on the Russian side has ever confirmed it" You mean apart from 'nationalists', 'hardliners' and 'communists'?
- mopsi 3y ago
  > I gave the link to the documents, not to hersay. It's a speculation that has been categorically refuted by the very persons it mentions. > You mean apart from 'nationalists', 'hardliners' and 'communists'? Apart from people like Putin, who at the time was nowhere near the foreign policy circles, but served as an enforcer for St Petersburg's mayor, collecting protection money and bribes from businesses.
  - protomolecule 3y ago
    How can a document be refuted?
    - mopsi 3y ago
      The Soviet minister of foreign affairs has explained that references to "NATO expansion" have been mischaracterized, and that their discussions were limited to placement of US forces in East Germany after reunification, and that no wider discussion about the future of Eastern Europe in NATO ever took place, let alone reached any agreement, because at the time they couldn't have imagined that the USSR would cease to exist in a few years. Both he and his successor find nothing wrong with the fact that most of Central and Eastern Europe eventually joined NATO and see no reason to whine about betrayal like Putin. If anything, they regret that the Europeans and Americans didn't engage more with Russia and didn't pressure it enough towards becoming a civilized country: While the West failed to seize the opportunity and some diplomatic mistakes were made on both sides, the United States and NATO were on the right side of history by admitting new democracies to the Alliance and being willing to find an accommodation with Russia. It was Moscow that returned to its antagonism toward NATO, which has been intensifying ever since. Yeltsin’s chosen successor president, Vladimir Putin, tried to hinder the West with a charm offensive in the early years of the 21 century and even hinted that Russia might join NATO. In the meantime, domestic anti-American and anti-NATO propaganda has continued to gain momentum. Today the Kremlin has left little doubt about its attitude toward the Alliance in words and in deeds. NATO remains the main power to safeguard the liberal world order. It is under attack from autocratic, populist and extremist forces who claim that the organization is outdated. The Kremlin’s champs and chumps in the West portray NATO as a bloc promoting American hegemony, expanding to the East and cornering Russia. It is reassuring however, that the U.S. Congress continues to display firm bipartisan support for NATO. The prospects of a new opening in Russian–NATO relations will depend on the resilience and firmness of the Alliance and on deep changes in Moscow’s domestic and foreign policy. I believe that sooner or later the Russian people will follow the suit of other European nations in finding their national interest in democratic reforms and cooperation with NATO and other Western institutions. https://transatlanticrelations.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/19-Kozyrev.pdf https://transatlanticrelations.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/0...

lpcvoid 3y ago

Even if you where right, all of this doesn't matter if sovereign nations decide they don't want to deal with russian threats, oligarchy/corruption and oppression anymore by joining NATO. I am happy they did and I think Europe's future is brighter if we stand together against the darkness that is russia.

mlindner 3y ago

There's never been promises to not expand NATO, let alone any signed agreements.

walteweiss 3y ago

If you ever read ‘NATO Expanded’ it’s a Russian narrative. NATO never expanded, its members ask to join NATO because they don’t want their sovereign states to be occupied by barbarians as it happened with Ukraine’s east. Or they don’t want to be just bombed, as it happened with basically every place in Ukraine.