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>I was watching the protests live in western media and have been following this since the beginning. This doesn't matter, let's just discuss facts. >I don't b

>I was watching the protests live in western media and have been following this since the beginning. This doesn't matter, let's just discuss facts. >I don't believe one side is the good side I believe that not all sides are created equal. I'd rather have my family be captured by NATO forces than russian ones, what about you? I think the term "orc" is even too kind when it comes to people that come to rape and pillage, with no distinction for age. You are muddying the water with all these implications about Euromaidan, CIA coups, fleet in Crimea, Saddam leaving the petrodollar, the US annexing bases etc. Let's state the cold facts: russia invaded Ukraine with a genocidal intent that has been shown with actions AND statements. Let's say the choice is between East and West rather than about independence. It looks like Ukrainians chose West, that doesn't give russia any right or justification to invade. There is nothing you can say that justifies what russians have done to Ukrainians (again). Russia wants to roleplay as an empire but it has literally nothing to offer to its would-be subjects. Are you really surprised about people preferring freedom of expression, free markets, a possible EU integration and the security of NATO rather than being part of the russkiy mir? All ex-subjects of russia would rather die than be at their mercy again.

worksonmine 3y ago
> I believe that not all sides are created equal. I'd rather have my family be captured by NATO forces than russian ones, what about you? I rather get killed in the forest than waterboarded in Guantanamo without trial for decades. But I would of course not have to choose at all. > Let's state the cold facts: russia invaded Ukraine with a genocidal intent that has been shown with actions AND statements Speaking of facts, how about you start providing your source for this hyperbole claim, and why mine about Crimea is muddying the waters. I also didn't mention the CIA, don't put words in my mouth it's dishonest. > It looks like Ukrainians chose West, that doesn't give russia any right or justification to invade No that's my point, they didn't. The pro-russian candidate won the election, and the pro-european side wouldn't have that so they burned buildings and started a civil war. Read up on Tymoshenko and everything leading up to Euromaidan and you'll find what I claim. Use any source you want, it's mainstream. > Russia wants to roleplay as an empire Ironic claim given the NATO expansion and the US activities in the middle-east. Russia has what, 3 allies left on it's borders and they're all in chaos from time to time with the western media cheering on the coups, last was Lukasjenko in Belarus. Why is that? > Are you really surprised about people preferring freedom of expression, free markets, a possible EU integration and the security of NATO This is the illusion we're being sold, but is speech really free even in the west? Can you imagine we're being told just as many lies as the other side of the world? There are some narratives that aren't allowed and groupthink and cancel culture is used as a weapon in the west. In my country people were ordering too much from China so we created a special toll for cheap Chinese products. Free market my ass. We need to hold our leaders and ourselves to a higher standard than our enemies, but we don't. Especially not when resorting to name calling like we're school bullies. All our leaders have to say is "yeah one guest at that wedding in the desert was a terrorist" and we're fine with entire families being wiped out with the push of a button. It's all in the name of good right? If we were actually good we would mourn anyone we had to kill, not agitate against the "orcs" like they're animals. It's disgusting. Meanwhile I'm being downvoted for stating what should be obvious to anyone paying attention.
- dindobre 3y ago
  >Speaking of facts, how about you start providing your source for this hyperbole claim It is you sending out a volley non falsifiable claims as an argument that justifies the invasion. You might as well tell me that PG is behind everything, I can't disprove that. >Ironic claim given the NATO expansion What aboutism. >This is the illusion we're being sold Yeah alright. Please don't bring groupthink and cancel culture into the discussion, it's really not pertinent, you are 1 minute away from going "the west has fallen". And I agree with you that there are many things to improve, to say the least. Still, even if the Western free speech, free market, etc. is all an illusion, Ukrainians have the right to pick that rather than the russkiy mir. >We need to hold our leaders and ourselves to a higher standard than our enemies I agree. Raping, torturing, pillaging, genociding, should be unthinkable. Doing that is giving up on being human, imo. >and we're fine with entire families being wiped out with the push of a button Who's we? >not agitate against the "orcs" like they're animals Who's agitating? It seems to me that Western media has been even too kind to russians. The most terrible deeds that by sheer luck emerge and become public are quickly forgotten. >anyone paying attention I guess the only one paying attention is you, not sure what you are paying attention to tho, since you seem unable to state something even just remotely close to the fact that russians are doing something wrong. I wish you and your family will never have to live under the threat of the russkiy mir, but, usually, textbook useful idiots and demoralized people (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yErKTVdETpw&ab_channel=NicholasMarshall https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yErKTVdETpw&ab_channel=Nicho...) tend to be far away from any danger in this day and age, with somebody else paying the price.
  - worksonmine 3y ago
    > It is you sending out a volley non falsifiable claims as an argument that justifies the invasion. You might as well tell me that PG is behind everything, What is non falsifiable? You can even find it on Wikipedia, that's how mainstream it all is. Who is PG? > What aboutism. Irrelevant, the discussion is about vilifying and dehumanizing the opposition. That's how we get places like Guantanamo and the pictures of Iraqi prisoners US soldiers took for shits and giggles. So what we do as a comparison is on topic. But if whataboutism is your best response so be it. > Ukrainians have the right to pick that rather than the russkiy mir. Still stuck here. What did they choose in the elections? Democracy picked Russia, coup gave them West. Read it twice so we don't need to go over it again. Wasted bytes. > I agree. Raping, torturing, pillaging, genociding, should be unthinkable. Doing that is giving up on being human, imo. And we don't? The US as we speak has warships protecting Israel in their genocide ("no water, no food, no electricity, nothing" - Israeli Defense Minister). Israel can compete in sports and Eurovision. Wars are a fucking popularity contest to us and it's absolutely disgusting. You'll probably claim the Azov battalion were fine human beings towards ethnic Russians between 2014-2022? > Who's we? Who's agitating? It seems to me that Western media has been even too kind to russians. The elite in the west. Western media. Latest example is Tuckers interview, even before it aired they started questioning why Putin should get the chance to speak. Why not? What are we so afraid of? Trump wins, and it must be Russia and Assange colluding. No no the americans can't possibly want this. Everytime this embarrassing blaming Russia for everything. Textbook propaganda. > I guess the only one paying attention is you, not sure what you are paying attention to tho, since you seem unable to state something even just remotely close to the fact that russians are doing something wrong. This is where you're deliberately misunderstanding me, even if I've mentioned in every comment that I don't pick sides. I just paint the picture that we're not as good as we try to claim and that we should get off our high horses. But I do see how we got in this situation, and it won't be the last one. For every atrocity you mention I can find comparisons from the West. I'm a pacifist and want peace and cooperation, not constant conflict. Plenty of people are paying attention, but the majority aren't they just change their profile picture to the latest conflict du jour and repeat their politicians mantras. I think peace in the world is possible, but those with the power to achieve it don't want that. An equal world doesn't benefit them. And it's not their kids dying in Ukraine. I would have much more respect for NATO if we actually went boots on the ground and helped sort out the mess we were part of creating. The poor Ukrainians were fooled, they took a big risk and when shit hit the fan they're on their own because we want to keep the illusion that we're not involved.

worksonmine 3y ago

> I believe that not all sides are created equal. I'd rather have my family be captured by NATO forces than russian ones, what about you? I rather get killed in the forest than waterboarded in Guantanamo without trial for decades. But I would of course not have to choose at all. > Let's state the cold facts: russia invaded Ukraine with a genocidal intent that has been shown with actions AND statements Speaking of facts, how about you start providing your source for this hyperbole claim, and why mine about Crimea is muddying the waters. I also didn't mention the CIA, don't put words in my mouth it's dishonest. > It looks like Ukrainians chose West, that doesn't give russia any right or justification to invade No that's my point, they didn't. The pro-russian candidate won the election, and the pro-european side wouldn't have that so they burned buildings and started a civil war. Read up on Tymoshenko and everything leading up to Euromaidan and you'll find what I claim. Use any source you want, it's mainstream. > Russia wants to roleplay as an empire Ironic claim given the NATO expansion and the US activities in the middle-east. Russia has what, 3 allies left on it's borders and they're all in chaos from time to time with the western media cheering on the coups, last was Lukasjenko in Belarus. Why is that? > Are you really surprised about people preferring freedom of expression, free markets, a possible EU integration and the security of NATO This is the illusion we're being sold, but is speech really free even in the west? Can you imagine we're being told just as many lies as the other side of the world? There are some narratives that aren't allowed and groupthink and cancel culture is used as a weapon in the west. In my country people were ordering too much from China so we created a special toll for cheap Chinese products. Free market my ass. We need to hold our leaders and ourselves to a higher standard than our enemies, but we don't. Especially not when resorting to name calling like we're school bullies. All our leaders have to say is "yeah one guest at that wedding in the desert was a terrorist" and we're fine with entire families being wiped out with the push of a button. It's all in the name of good right? If we were actually good we would mourn anyone we had to kill, not agitate against the "orcs" like they're animals. It's disgusting. Meanwhile I'm being downvoted for stating what should be obvious to anyone paying attention.

dindobre 3y ago
>Speaking of facts, how about you start providing your source for this hyperbole claim It is you sending out a volley non falsifiable claims as an argument that justifies the invasion. You might as well tell me that PG is behind everything, I can't disprove that. >Ironic claim given the NATO expansion What aboutism. >This is the illusion we're being sold Yeah alright. Please don't bring groupthink and cancel culture into the discussion, it's really not pertinent, you are 1 minute away from going "the west has fallen". And I agree with you that there are many things to improve, to say the least. Still, even if the Western free speech, free market, etc. is all an illusion, Ukrainians have the right to pick that rather than the russkiy mir. >We need to hold our leaders and ourselves to a higher standard than our enemies I agree. Raping, torturing, pillaging, genociding, should be unthinkable. Doing that is giving up on being human, imo. >and we're fine with entire families being wiped out with the push of a button Who's we? >not agitate against the "orcs" like they're animals Who's agitating? It seems to me that Western media has been even too kind to russians. The most terrible deeds that by sheer luck emerge and become public are quickly forgotten. >anyone paying attention I guess the only one paying attention is you, not sure what you are paying attention to tho, since you seem unable to state something even just remotely close to the fact that russians are doing something wrong. I wish you and your family will never have to live under the threat of the russkiy mir, but, usually, textbook useful idiots and demoralized people (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yErKTVdETpw&ab_channel=NicholasMarshall https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yErKTVdETpw&ab_channel=Nicho...) tend to be far away from any danger in this day and age, with somebody else paying the price.
- worksonmine 3y ago
  > It is you sending out a volley non falsifiable claims as an argument that justifies the invasion. You might as well tell me that PG is behind everything, What is non falsifiable? You can even find it on Wikipedia, that's how mainstream it all is. Who is PG? > What aboutism. Irrelevant, the discussion is about vilifying and dehumanizing the opposition. That's how we get places like Guantanamo and the pictures of Iraqi prisoners US soldiers took for shits and giggles. So what we do as a comparison is on topic. But if whataboutism is your best response so be it. > Ukrainians have the right to pick that rather than the russkiy mir. Still stuck here. What did they choose in the elections? Democracy picked Russia, coup gave them West. Read it twice so we don't need to go over it again. Wasted bytes. > I agree. Raping, torturing, pillaging, genociding, should be unthinkable. Doing that is giving up on being human, imo. And we don't? The US as we speak has warships protecting Israel in their genocide ("no water, no food, no electricity, nothing" - Israeli Defense Minister). Israel can compete in sports and Eurovision. Wars are a fucking popularity contest to us and it's absolutely disgusting. You'll probably claim the Azov battalion were fine human beings towards ethnic Russians between 2014-2022? > Who's we? Who's agitating? It seems to me that Western media has been even too kind to russians. The elite in the west. Western media. Latest example is Tuckers interview, even before it aired they started questioning why Putin should get the chance to speak. Why not? What are we so afraid of? Trump wins, and it must be Russia and Assange colluding. No no the americans can't possibly want this. Everytime this embarrassing blaming Russia for everything. Textbook propaganda. > I guess the only one paying attention is you, not sure what you are paying attention to tho, since you seem unable to state something even just remotely close to the fact that russians are doing something wrong. This is where you're deliberately misunderstanding me, even if I've mentioned in every comment that I don't pick sides. I just paint the picture that we're not as good as we try to claim and that we should get off our high horses. But I do see how we got in this situation, and it won't be the last one. For every atrocity you mention I can find comparisons from the West. I'm a pacifist and want peace and cooperation, not constant conflict. Plenty of people are paying attention, but the majority aren't they just change their profile picture to the latest conflict du jour and repeat their politicians mantras. I think peace in the world is possible, but those with the power to achieve it don't want that. An equal world doesn't benefit them. And it's not their kids dying in Ukraine. I would have much more respect for NATO if we actually went boots on the ground and helped sort out the mess we were part of creating. The poor Ukrainians were fooled, they took a big risk and when shit hit the fan they're on their own because we want to keep the illusion that we're not involved.