6 ms·

> Artillery shells are but one tool though, which for some reason has become the main tool (? citation needed) in the Ukraine war The reason is that neither si

> Artillery shells are but one tool though, which for some reason has become the main tool (? citation needed) in the Ukraine war The reason is that neither side has air supremacy. Ukrainian AA defense is good enough to keep the Russians at bay, but Russian AA defense is also good enough to prevent Ukrainians from taking out their frontline defenses. So with classic air forces being all but taken out, the only way either side can make progress is by using tanks and artillery.

selimthegrim 3y ago
Can’t we give Ukraine HARMs?
- piva00 3y ago
  The USA seems unable to give any more support due to political deadlock. It definitely could provide much more to Ukraine if both parties were aligned to the common cause of sustaining America's hegemony by being a reliable ally, right now there's one party which the whole ideology centers on going against whatever the other party does and/or supports. Even if that means allowing Putin's Russia to gain more power and influence. I don't think the vast majority of Americans understand the long-term consequences of allowing the USA to become unreliable to its closest partners (the West in general). You will be feeling this over the next few decades, America's soft power is waning.
  - mschuster91 3y ago
    > It definitely could provide much more to Ukraine if both parties were aligned to the common cause of sustaining America's hegemony by being a reliable ally, right now there's one party which the whole ideology centers on going against whatever the other party does and/or supports. Even if that means allowing Putin's Russia to gain more power and influence. It's even worse. The 45th is actively calling for Russia to take what they want.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- protomolecule 3y ago
  You have already done that. [0] They don't seem to work too well. [1] [0] https://aviationweek.com/defense-space/missile-defense-weapons/us-sends-more-harm-air-defense-killing-missiles-ukraine https://aviationweek.com/defense-space/missile-defense-weapo... [1] https://www.eurasiantimes.com/hamrless-missiles-us-supplied-agm-88-harms-are-failing-to-breach/ https://www.eurasiantimes.com/hamrless-missiles-us-supplied-...
  - mrguyorama 3y ago
    We gave them nerfed HARMs that can't properly integrate with their soviet planes, and they have zero SEAD training. HARMs aren't magic, without the strategy and training required for good SEAD, they won't do much. Things may improve when the F-16s start flying since those are properly integrated and capable SEAD platforms.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - protomolecule 3y ago
      "Things may improve when the F-16s start flying" This could only end with tactical nukes starting flying and with the strategic ones if the US attacks Russia. Things won't 'improve' no matter what happens.
      - actionfromafar 3y ago
        Putin is done for in those scenarios. He doesn't look the type to fall on his sword.
        protomolecule 3y ago
        In which scenario he isn't done for if the US keeps escalating?
        actionfromafar 3y ago
- terafo 3y ago
  Ukrainan Air Force has HARMs, but they are VERY limited in their capabilities due to them being employed from soviet-era jets. Basically area where target resides have to be pre-programmed on the ground, rocket then flies to that area and lock on any radar it finds there. But what previous commenter missed is that even if Russian air defenses are suppressed, their planes outclass Ukrainian ones. For example, air to air missiles that UAF has available need to be guided by planes radar all the way through, also that missiles have shorter range than something like R-37, which is fire and forget with VERY high range. Western air to air missiles are much better than what Ukraine has right now, but they can't be fired from Su-27 or MiG-29, they require something like F-16 or Gripen, but while a bunch of European countries agreed to transfer them, Ukrainian pilots and ground crews don't know how to operate them, and need to be trained, which happens right now. If there were trained beforehand it would've changed current situation on the front lines VERY significantly.
rawgabbit 3y ago
What happened to the F16s, Ukraine was promised?
- inglor_cz 3y ago
  F16s will arrive this spring, but Soviet AA was designed to contain them. None of the expert observers seems to consider F16s a gamechanger on the battlefield right now.
  - sudosysgen 3y ago
    Soviet AA isn't even the biggest threat - As many Ukrainian pilots put it, the main threat is the R-37M. You can at least fly low and out of the way to defend against SAMs, but without a missile like the Meteor there is no answer to the combination of long range SAMs and R-37M carrying fighters. Basically the problem is that to avoid AA you have to fly low or far from the front lines. If you fly low, you can't give enough energy to your missile to threaten even just Russian bombers. If you fly high but far away, there is no way to deal with Russian planes carrying R-37s that will be able to fire their missiles far before you. The only way to even the playing field would be to give Ukraine modern Gripens with the Meteor missile, as the F-16 cannot fire the Meteor.
    - fullspectrumdev 3y ago
      > as the F-16 cannot fire the Meteor. To be fair, the MiG’s Ukraine does have were not supposed to be capable of firing storm shadows either. But that problem got resolved, and they are now firing them well outside the expected operational envelope and scoring solid hits.
      - sudosysgen 3y ago
        Not really. The Storm Shadows are programmed externally, the plane just gives the signal to fire. For the Meteor you would need deep integration into the fire control system, and even into the data links to be able to use it's range as the F-16 radar is not powerful enough. If it was easy to do, MBDA would have done it and made a lot of money that way.

selimthegrim 3y ago

Can’t we give Ukraine HARMs?

piva00 3y ago
The USA seems unable to give any more support due to political deadlock. It definitely could provide much more to Ukraine if both parties were aligned to the common cause of sustaining America's hegemony by being a reliable ally, right now there's one party which the whole ideology centers on going against whatever the other party does and/or supports. Even if that means allowing Putin's Russia to gain more power and influence. I don't think the vast majority of Americans understand the long-term consequences of allowing the USA to become unreliable to its closest partners (the West in general). You will be feeling this over the next few decades, America's soft power is waning.
- mschuster91 3y ago
  > It definitely could provide much more to Ukraine if both parties were aligned to the common cause of sustaining America's hegemony by being a reliable ally, right now there's one party which the whole ideology centers on going against whatever the other party does and/or supports. Even if that means allowing Putin's Russia to gain more power and influence. It's even worse. The 45th is actively calling for Russia to take what they want.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
protomolecule 3y ago
You have already done that. [0] They don't seem to work too well. [1] [0] https://aviationweek.com/defense-space/missile-defense-weapons/us-sends-more-harm-air-defense-killing-missiles-ukraine https://aviationweek.com/defense-space/missile-defense-weapo... [1] https://www.eurasiantimes.com/hamrless-missiles-us-supplied-agm-88-harms-are-failing-to-breach/ https://www.eurasiantimes.com/hamrless-missiles-us-supplied-...
- mrguyorama 3y ago
  We gave them nerfed HARMs that can't properly integrate with their soviet planes, and they have zero SEAD training. HARMs aren't magic, without the strategy and training required for good SEAD, they won't do much. Things may improve when the F-16s start flying since those are properly integrated and capable SEAD platforms.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - protomolecule 3y ago
    "Things may improve when the F-16s start flying" This could only end with tactical nukes starting flying and with the strategic ones if the US attacks Russia. Things won't 'improve' no matter what happens.
    - actionfromafar 3y ago
      Putin is done for in those scenarios. He doesn't look the type to fall on his sword.
      - protomolecule 3y ago
        In which scenario he isn't done for if the US keeps escalating?
        actionfromafar 3y ago
terafo 3y ago
Ukrainan Air Force has HARMs, but they are VERY limited in their capabilities due to them being employed from soviet-era jets. Basically area where target resides have to be pre-programmed on the ground, rocket then flies to that area and lock on any radar it finds there. But what previous commenter missed is that even if Russian air defenses are suppressed, their planes outclass Ukrainian ones. For example, air to air missiles that UAF has available need to be guided by planes radar all the way through, also that missiles have shorter range than something like R-37, which is fire and forget with VERY high range. Western air to air missiles are much better than what Ukraine has right now, but they can't be fired from Su-27 or MiG-29, they require something like F-16 or Gripen, but while a bunch of European countries agreed to transfer them, Ukrainian pilots and ground crews don't know how to operate them, and need to be trained, which happens right now. If there were trained beforehand it would've changed current situation on the front lines VERY significantly.

rawgabbit 3y ago

What happened to the F16s, Ukraine was promised?

inglor_cz 3y ago
F16s will arrive this spring, but Soviet AA was designed to contain them. None of the expert observers seems to consider F16s a gamechanger on the battlefield right now.
- sudosysgen 3y ago
  Soviet AA isn't even the biggest threat - As many Ukrainian pilots put it, the main threat is the R-37M. You can at least fly low and out of the way to defend against SAMs, but without a missile like the Meteor there is no answer to the combination of long range SAMs and R-37M carrying fighters. Basically the problem is that to avoid AA you have to fly low or far from the front lines. If you fly low, you can't give enough energy to your missile to threaten even just Russian bombers. If you fly high but far away, there is no way to deal with Russian planes carrying R-37s that will be able to fire their missiles far before you. The only way to even the playing field would be to give Ukraine modern Gripens with the Meteor missile, as the F-16 cannot fire the Meteor.
  - fullspectrumdev 3y ago
    > as the F-16 cannot fire the Meteor. To be fair, the MiG’s Ukraine does have were not supposed to be capable of firing storm shadows either. But that problem got resolved, and they are now firing them well outside the expected operational envelope and scoring solid hits.
    - sudosysgen 3y ago
      Not really. The Storm Shadows are programmed externally, the plane just gives the signal to fire. For the Meteor you would need deep integration into the fire control system, and even into the data links to be able to use it's range as the F-16 radar is not powerful enough. If it was easy to do, MBDA would have done it and made a lot of money that way.