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The most dehumanizing thing would be to compile all the material that shows what atrocities russians have carried out in Ukraine and show it in Western schools

The most dehumanizing thing would be to compile all the material that shows what atrocities russians have carried out in Ukraine and show it in Western schools during history classes, would pretty much guarantee nobody wanting anything to do with russians for each generation that is shown the material. And this is ignoring all precedent russian history. It's very easy to look at what's happening from afar and call the term "orc" dehumanizing, and yes I share the opinion that being too confident in being on the good side is wrong, but we must also not fall into moral relativism were we see a horde of barbarians blackmailing the world with nuclear weapons and we are worried about using the term orc. Humans are born with equal rights (at least in some countries) but aren't equal in capacity, character, judgment, and so on.

worksonmine 3y ago
Long before the invasion there were atrocities committed in the war. Civilians killed by literal nazis and the world cheering them on. All because a pro-russian won the election and the pro western candidate was too impatient to wait until the next chance. Geopolitics is ugly and the world is run by psychopaths. You're siding with one side, and asking to indoctrinate our children to hate the other, just like you've probably been your entire life. We're always at war with the east. Endless proxy wars and more division is not the solution. We like to believe we're on the good side in the west but I don't, we brought this war on Ukraine with empty promises and now that shit hit the fan we let them fend on their own, and taking the opportunity to test some weapons. I like to hold my side to a higher standard than the "enemy".
- dindobre 3y ago
  Your entire comment exudes russian propaganda but is shy to bring out specific facts. "civilians killed by nazis", "it's all geopolitics atrocities are normal", "proxy war". Let me tell you this straight: Ukrainians have a right to decide if they want to be part of the russkiy mir or if they want to be independent, no amount of disinformation or demoralization changes this fact. Teaching history is not indoctrination. You expose people to facts, they'll draw a conclusion. Some facts lead to obvious conclusions. There is simply no going back from the genocidal acts AND statements made by russians, no amount of NATO bad cope will change that. >We like to believe we're on the good side in the west but I don't If you believe russia is on the good side you need to be checked in, but I'm sure you live in a place that wouldn't be impacted by the russkiy mir spilling over and going on some more. Allow me the arrogance to suggest a good intro material to understand why your comment is completely wrong: Timothy Snyder: The Making of Modern Ukraine. >I like to hold my side to a higher standard than the "enemy". Same, I can't believe some people would shrug off the kind of atrocities russians brought to Ukraine (again, let's ignore past history). It looks like most russians are even supporting it. The fact is that there are two types of Europeans: the ones who didn't experience russians subjugating their country and the ones who would rather die fighting.
  - worksonmine 3y ago
    I was watching the protests live in western media and have been following this since the beginning. I don't take my information from anyone but what I see and my own conclusions from the facts. > If you believe russia is on the good side you need to be checked in I don't believe one side is the good side, like I mentioned the world is run by psychopaths and I refuse to pick a side. That's the entire problem today, everyone picks a side and sees the opposition as enemies or as the GP said "orcs". The world is more complicated than that. > Ukrainians have a right to decide if they want to be part of the russkiy mir or if they want to be independent They did, in an election, which started the Euromaidan and everything went to shit. Tymoshenko was against the deal for the Russian Crimea fleet long before that and she instigated her followers to take to the streets. This is called democracy from "our" side, coup if it's the opponent. I'm 100% sure the US would annex their bases in a similar situation. Telling that you think the choice is Russia or independence. It's a choice between east and west, the situation is about the fleet in Crimea. Why do you think Erdogan can piss in all directions at once? The Bosporus. I'm not saying anything going on in the world is okay but you're fooling yourself if you don't think we have a part in this. We want the east poor and in chaos, we were fine with Saddam killing the kurds, but leave the petrodollar? Oh no you don't! It's easier to call what I say propaganda or misinfirmation, but they're facts. Read up on everything from sources you trust and you should come to the same conclusions. Nothing I say is even far fetched, the US is the self-appointed world police and this has been going on for decades, centuries if you think of the west. Some people just have to run the world and don't want to share.
    - dindobre 3y ago
      >I was watching the protests live in western media and have been following this since the beginning. This doesn't matter, let's just discuss facts. >I don't believe one side is the good side I believe that not all sides are created equal. I'd rather have my family be captured by NATO forces than russian ones, what about you? I think the term "orc" is even too kind when it comes to people that come to rape and pillage, with no distinction for age. You are muddying the water with all these implications about Euromaidan, CIA coups, fleet in Crimea, Saddam leaving the petrodollar, the US annexing bases etc. Let's state the cold facts: russia invaded Ukraine with a genocidal intent that has been shown with actions AND statements. Let's say the choice is between East and West rather than about independence. It looks like Ukrainians chose West, that doesn't give russia any right or justification to invade. There is nothing you can say that justifies what russians have done to Ukrainians (again). Russia wants to roleplay as an empire but it has literally nothing to offer to its would-be subjects. Are you really surprised about people preferring freedom of expression, free markets, a possible EU integration and the security of NATO rather than being part of the russkiy mir? All ex-subjects of russia would rather die than be at their mercy again.
JanisErdmanis 3y ago
> Humans are born with equal rights (at least in some countries) but aren't equal in capacity, character, judgment, and so on. This is the most insulting statement on humanity and democracy I have read recently. I don’t really think you have meant it the way you have written it. Let’s unpack some parts of the statement. > Humans are born with equal rights This part sanitizes the fact that some are born in poor some in rich families. The rights may be in theory equal but only the one with the wealth and knowledge on political environment will be able to use them. > [Humans] aren't [born] equal in capacity, character, judgment, and so on. I can only read this part sensing some rasism and elitism. This neglects a dramatic impact on the environment where the person is born and expectations from them if they want to fit in. To conclude, Russians are not orcs because they are born that way, but instead because they have been raised in an orc fertilising envirtonment.
- dindobre 3y ago
  Please do not add your interpretations and state them as mine, I'm happy to clarify what I meant: I think all humans should have the same exact rights, but humans aren't born the same, some are blonde, some are tall, some are, in fact, very fucking stupid, some of them are psychopaths. There is nothing classist or racist in that. I don't want to go into the nurture vs nature argument, but if somebody is doing something very bad to somebody else (e.g. attempted murder), he should be stopped. I don't think I am saying anything extravagant here. To justify or diminish what the bad actor (the would-be murderer) is doing in any way is real racism/classism/whatever. >but instead because they have been raised in an orc fertilising envirtonment I mean, after centuries of repression, gulags, etc. I'm sure either the culture or the society could have been affected? Let's drop the orc term and substitute it with "wish Ukrainian genocide". To conclude, Russians are not "wishers of Ukrainian genocide" because they are born that way, but instead because they have been raised in a "wishers of Ukrainian genocide" fertilising envirtonment. Now that I've sanitized the sentence, could you point out why I should care about how russians have come to be this way rather than caring about stopping them to avoid the destruction of Ukraine?
  - JanisErdmanis 3y ago

worksonmine 3y ago

Long before the invasion there were atrocities committed in the war. Civilians killed by literal nazis and the world cheering them on. All because a pro-russian won the election and the pro western candidate was too impatient to wait until the next chance. Geopolitics is ugly and the world is run by psychopaths. You're siding with one side, and asking to indoctrinate our children to hate the other, just like you've probably been your entire life. We're always at war with the east. Endless proxy wars and more division is not the solution. We like to believe we're on the good side in the west but I don't, we brought this war on Ukraine with empty promises and now that shit hit the fan we let them fend on their own, and taking the opportunity to test some weapons. I like to hold my side to a higher standard than the "enemy".

dindobre 3y ago
Your entire comment exudes russian propaganda but is shy to bring out specific facts. "civilians killed by nazis", "it's all geopolitics atrocities are normal", "proxy war". Let me tell you this straight: Ukrainians have a right to decide if they want to be part of the russkiy mir or if they want to be independent, no amount of disinformation or demoralization changes this fact. Teaching history is not indoctrination. You expose people to facts, they'll draw a conclusion. Some facts lead to obvious conclusions. There is simply no going back from the genocidal acts AND statements made by russians, no amount of NATO bad cope will change that. >We like to believe we're on the good side in the west but I don't If you believe russia is on the good side you need to be checked in, but I'm sure you live in a place that wouldn't be impacted by the russkiy mir spilling over and going on some more. Allow me the arrogance to suggest a good intro material to understand why your comment is completely wrong: Timothy Snyder: The Making of Modern Ukraine. >I like to hold my side to a higher standard than the "enemy". Same, I can't believe some people would shrug off the kind of atrocities russians brought to Ukraine (again, let's ignore past history). It looks like most russians are even supporting it. The fact is that there are two types of Europeans: the ones who didn't experience russians subjugating their country and the ones who would rather die fighting.
- worksonmine 3y ago
  I was watching the protests live in western media and have been following this since the beginning. I don't take my information from anyone but what I see and my own conclusions from the facts. > If you believe russia is on the good side you need to be checked in I don't believe one side is the good side, like I mentioned the world is run by psychopaths and I refuse to pick a side. That's the entire problem today, everyone picks a side and sees the opposition as enemies or as the GP said "orcs". The world is more complicated than that. > Ukrainians have a right to decide if they want to be part of the russkiy mir or if they want to be independent They did, in an election, which started the Euromaidan and everything went to shit. Tymoshenko was against the deal for the Russian Crimea fleet long before that and she instigated her followers to take to the streets. This is called democracy from "our" side, coup if it's the opponent. I'm 100% sure the US would annex their bases in a similar situation. Telling that you think the choice is Russia or independence. It's a choice between east and west, the situation is about the fleet in Crimea. Why do you think Erdogan can piss in all directions at once? The Bosporus. I'm not saying anything going on in the world is okay but you're fooling yourself if you don't think we have a part in this. We want the east poor and in chaos, we were fine with Saddam killing the kurds, but leave the petrodollar? Oh no you don't! It's easier to call what I say propaganda or misinfirmation, but they're facts. Read up on everything from sources you trust and you should come to the same conclusions. Nothing I say is even far fetched, the US is the self-appointed world police and this has been going on for decades, centuries if you think of the west. Some people just have to run the world and don't want to share.
  - dindobre 3y ago
    >I was watching the protests live in western media and have been following this since the beginning. This doesn't matter, let's just discuss facts. >I don't believe one side is the good side I believe that not all sides are created equal. I'd rather have my family be captured by NATO forces than russian ones, what about you? I think the term "orc" is even too kind when it comes to people that come to rape and pillage, with no distinction for age. You are muddying the water with all these implications about Euromaidan, CIA coups, fleet in Crimea, Saddam leaving the petrodollar, the US annexing bases etc. Let's state the cold facts: russia invaded Ukraine with a genocidal intent that has been shown with actions AND statements. Let's say the choice is between East and West rather than about independence. It looks like Ukrainians chose West, that doesn't give russia any right or justification to invade. There is nothing you can say that justifies what russians have done to Ukrainians (again). Russia wants to roleplay as an empire but it has literally nothing to offer to its would-be subjects. Are you really surprised about people preferring freedom of expression, free markets, a possible EU integration and the security of NATO rather than being part of the russkiy mir? All ex-subjects of russia would rather die than be at their mercy again.

JanisErdmanis 3y ago

> Humans are born with equal rights (at least in some countries) but aren't equal in capacity, character, judgment, and so on. This is the most insulting statement on humanity and democracy I have read recently. I don’t really think you have meant it the way you have written it. Let’s unpack some parts of the statement. > Humans are born with equal rights This part sanitizes the fact that some are born in poor some in rich families. The rights may be in theory equal but only the one with the wealth and knowledge on political environment will be able to use them. > [Humans] aren't [born] equal in capacity, character, judgment, and so on. I can only read this part sensing some rasism and elitism. This neglects a dramatic impact on the environment where the person is born and expectations from them if they want to fit in. To conclude, Russians are not orcs because they are born that way, but instead because they have been raised in an orc fertilising envirtonment.

dindobre 3y ago
Please do not add your interpretations and state them as mine, I'm happy to clarify what I meant: I think all humans should have the same exact rights, but humans aren't born the same, some are blonde, some are tall, some are, in fact, very fucking stupid, some of them are psychopaths. There is nothing classist or racist in that. I don't want to go into the nurture vs nature argument, but if somebody is doing something very bad to somebody else (e.g. attempted murder), he should be stopped. I don't think I am saying anything extravagant here. To justify or diminish what the bad actor (the would-be murderer) is doing in any way is real racism/classism/whatever. >but instead because they have been raised in an orc fertilising envirtonment I mean, after centuries of repression, gulags, etc. I'm sure either the culture or the society could have been affected? Let's drop the orc term and substitute it with "wish Ukrainian genocide". To conclude, Russians are not "wishers of Ukrainian genocide" because they are born that way, but instead because they have been raised in a "wishers of Ukrainian genocide" fertilising envirtonment. Now that I've sanitized the sentence, could you point out why I should care about how russians have come to be this way rather than caring about stopping them to avoid the destruction of Ukraine?
- JanisErdmanis 3y ago