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The brave denizens of the Internet love to ridicule Russians for their learned helplessness, calling them weak, docile, etc. Well, here's another example of th

The brave denizens of the Internet love to ridicule Russians for their learned helplessness, calling them weak, docile, etc. Well, here's another example of the thing that most of those who grew up in that culture know or feel subliminally: the hero always crushes evil and triumphs at the end of the story. But in real life, for every success there are thousands that wither along the way.

A4ET8a8uTh0 3y ago
Maybe I am not participating in the 'right' conversations, but I don't recall HN being a forum for such a silly name calling ( and if it is, it tends to be called out ). << the hero always crushes evil and triumphs at the end of the story. But in real life, for every success there are thousands that wither along the way. I think even in US kids learn really fast that there are no heroes; especially these days. One could argue this is one of the factors so many have withdrawn to easier past times.
- ZoomZoomZoom 3y ago
  Just to clarify, I'm not calling HN out on this specifically. This place is one of the most civilized corners of the web. In other places it's rampant though, and I'm pretty sure some of the people holding this view are here.
PedroBatista 3y ago
> Russians for their learned helplessness, calling them weak, docile, etc. "learned helplessness" yes "calling them weak, docile, etc." - I'm not aware of this going on in any meaningful scale. About the "learned helplessness" and general apathy it's true and the product of many things, one of them a very targeted effort to make the people internalize this during a whole century. China is very similar in this regard too. All those "decadent" western democracies went through periods of very violent internal wars, centuries of constant internal "cold wars" where the main objective was "democracy" that includes many things like separation of State/Justice/Free Speech, a minimum standard of living ( not just economic ) that society itself does not tolerate existing below that, etc. I'm talking about the real practical thing, not the "cerimonies" or the theatrical plays of "democracy" authoritarian regimes like to show. Russia never had that, it had a lot of violence, but for other reasons. One of the main one is Imperialism. "Russia" in reality is pretty much just Moscow and nearby lands, but Russians have imperialism in their psyche. That's why the Baltics, Ukraine, Georgia, Moldova, etc are considered "brother" nations. Because most people in Russia would see no problem if they were somehow "peacefully" integrated in Russia. But when it comes to pay the price, Russians are "apathetic" because even with all those big speeches and grandiose imperial ego, they know anyone who shows initiative becomes a target. I don't think it will happen anytime soon, but the best thing to happen to Russia would be to breakup in other states as much as this stupid brutality has been to keep it's internal integrity. That's also why they are always inventing evil external enemies.
- mihaaly 3y ago
  > "calling them weak, docile, etc." - I'm not aware of this going on in any meaningful scale. That is a shame because they actually are. I feel the same coward and pity venal attitude with the Hungarian people - being a soulmate of Russians in this regard - whom I grown up with. They would be very vocal about being proud and brave but the actions only show shortsighted submissive conformity to ruthless tyrants for pity same day breadcrumbs - from the wealth taken away from them. Or just liking if others take charge, instead of the freedom to act that comes with taking responsibility for own actions. Smart people using their talents to screw with others, or just laying low in the hope to get by, whatever happens. Whatever! (a good few even participating for similar reasons, and of course there are scores participating, since Putins and Orbáns would just be laughing stock without the complicity and active support of masses)
  - culebron21 3y ago
    At first I wanted to argue with your point (suggesting that the elites are to blame much more than ordinary folks) but thinking more, I just want to correct. Submissiveness that you mention implies that people understand their interests, what's just (in broad sense), and just don't want to act. And we expect that finally they'll wake up and rebel. I also went to street protests in 2021 when Navalny was enjailed, expecting something to change, but was reminded of what I knew from sociology earlier. Studies showed that it's not submissiveness in post-totalitarian people that stops them. It's rather immoralism and double-think. People see status-quo challengers as suspicious, and discredit them. They distrust the government -- that's why Russian opposition speakers insist that "Putin has no broad support". But they also hope the state will take care of them, and constantly seek signs of this. They hate state officials, but discedit those who challenge them and goes in politics -- especially those trying to pursue interests of common folk. These traits of character developed as defense to totalitarianism -- interference with private life and demand of loyalty, and daily hardships. This was describen in a book "Simple Soviet man" (1993) by sociologist Yuri Levada, summarizing his studies of post-Soviet people's views and their contradictions. There are brief descriptions of it in Englihs, try searching for them.
    - 3y ago
parthianshotgun 3y ago
The same I think could also be said of Russia, in their view they are the hero's, it makes for good and easily digestible propaganda. I think the triumph of good over evil is a bias we all share, to recognize the complexity, well, that involves a healthy amount of skepticism. I think underlying it is probably a decent ethic, once we define good/logos/love/god. Defining something doesn't mean we still aren't influenced by it
User3456335 3y ago
You can learn a lot of that from reading Dostoyevski. At least, from what I have read so far. It's painful to read (injustice, pessimism, disappointment) so I haven't gotten very far yet but it feels more honest.

A4ET8a8uTh0 3y ago

Maybe I am not participating in the 'right' conversations, but I don't recall HN being a forum for such a silly name calling ( and if it is, it tends to be called out ). << the hero always crushes evil and triumphs at the end of the story. But in real life, for every success there are thousands that wither along the way. I think even in US kids learn really fast that there are no heroes; especially these days. One could argue this is one of the factors so many have withdrawn to easier past times.

ZoomZoomZoom 3y ago
Just to clarify, I'm not calling HN out on this specifically. This place is one of the most civilized corners of the web. In other places it's rampant though, and I'm pretty sure some of the people holding this view are here.

PedroBatista 3y ago

> Russians for their learned helplessness, calling them weak, docile, etc. "learned helplessness" yes "calling them weak, docile, etc." - I'm not aware of this going on in any meaningful scale. About the "learned helplessness" and general apathy it's true and the product of many things, one of them a very targeted effort to make the people internalize this during a whole century. China is very similar in this regard too. All those "decadent" western democracies went through periods of very violent internal wars, centuries of constant internal "cold wars" where the main objective was "democracy" that includes many things like separation of State/Justice/Free Speech, a minimum standard of living ( not just economic ) that society itself does not tolerate existing below that, etc. I'm talking about the real practical thing, not the "cerimonies" or the theatrical plays of "democracy" authoritarian regimes like to show. Russia never had that, it had a lot of violence, but for other reasons. One of the main one is Imperialism. "Russia" in reality is pretty much just Moscow and nearby lands, but Russians have imperialism in their psyche. That's why the Baltics, Ukraine, Georgia, Moldova, etc are considered "brother" nations. Because most people in Russia would see no problem if they were somehow "peacefully" integrated in Russia. But when it comes to pay the price, Russians are "apathetic" because even with all those big speeches and grandiose imperial ego, they know anyone who shows initiative becomes a target. I don't think it will happen anytime soon, but the best thing to happen to Russia would be to breakup in other states as much as this stupid brutality has been to keep it's internal integrity. That's also why they are always inventing evil external enemies.

mihaaly 3y ago
> "calling them weak, docile, etc." - I'm not aware of this going on in any meaningful scale. That is a shame because they actually are. I feel the same coward and pity venal attitude with the Hungarian people - being a soulmate of Russians in this regard - whom I grown up with. They would be very vocal about being proud and brave but the actions only show shortsighted submissive conformity to ruthless tyrants for pity same day breadcrumbs - from the wealth taken away from them. Or just liking if others take charge, instead of the freedom to act that comes with taking responsibility for own actions. Smart people using their talents to screw with others, or just laying low in the hope to get by, whatever happens. Whatever! (a good few even participating for similar reasons, and of course there are scores participating, since Putins and Orbáns would just be laughing stock without the complicity and active support of masses)
- culebron21 3y ago
  At first I wanted to argue with your point (suggesting that the elites are to blame much more than ordinary folks) but thinking more, I just want to correct. Submissiveness that you mention implies that people understand their interests, what's just (in broad sense), and just don't want to act. And we expect that finally they'll wake up and rebel. I also went to street protests in 2021 when Navalny was enjailed, expecting something to change, but was reminded of what I knew from sociology earlier. Studies showed that it's not submissiveness in post-totalitarian people that stops them. It's rather immoralism and double-think. People see status-quo challengers as suspicious, and discredit them. They distrust the government -- that's why Russian opposition speakers insist that "Putin has no broad support". But they also hope the state will take care of them, and constantly seek signs of this. They hate state officials, but discedit those who challenge them and goes in politics -- especially those trying to pursue interests of common folk. These traits of character developed as defense to totalitarianism -- interference with private life and demand of loyalty, and daily hardships. This was describen in a book "Simple Soviet man" (1993) by sociologist Yuri Levada, summarizing his studies of post-Soviet people's views and their contradictions. There are brief descriptions of it in Englihs, try searching for them.
  - 3y ago

parthianshotgun 3y ago

The same I think could also be said of Russia, in their view they are the hero's, it makes for good and easily digestible propaganda. I think the triumph of good over evil is a bias we all share, to recognize the complexity, well, that involves a healthy amount of skepticism. I think underlying it is probably a decent ethic, once we define good/logos/love/god. Defining something doesn't mean we still aren't influenced by it

User3456335 3y ago

You can learn a lot of that from reading Dostoyevski. At least, from what I have read so far. It's painful to read (injustice, pessimism, disappointment) so I haven't gotten very far yet but it feels more honest.