4 ms·

It's hard to think of any military intervention in the last 60 years by US and their friends that left the region or country in a better state, Asia, South-Amer

It's hard to think of any military intervention in the last 60 years by US and their friends that left the region or country in a better state, Asia, South-America, Africa, Middle-east it all became big mess. Arguable some of that mess was by design, but not all. Russia is not something anyone can solve from the outside; they have to figure it out themselves. Same for the Europe & the US, there are enough things to figure out here.

jacquesm 3y ago
There are other ways short of military intervention that can be quite effective.
- wouldbecouldbe 3y ago
  Like what? Boycots are in place, what remains? CIA mingling? Taking Putin out? Any of those things are hard to predict and allow you to confidently steer the country in a right direction. There arguably a lot of places, for instance South America & Iran, where those action were taken and only made things worse.
  - jacquesm 3y ago
    Boycotts are definitely not in place and as long as we tolerate countries doing an end run around any kind of sanction without being sanctioned themselves they will remain ineffective.
    - wouldbecouldbe 3y ago
      Sanctions are a patronizing form of punishments that have hardly ever been effective and are hard to maintain over a long period of time. Take Iran, even when there is a huge international block working together against Iran, the people suffer yet the government continues but just in secret to develop their nuclear program. And if anything it spurred Iran's warlike actions in the region. To do it because of Navalny would just be a out of a wish to punish, not out of knowledge it would actually change the situation. And is it the role of the West to dish out punishment? Besides it would just be used by Putin to empower the internal story of the threat of the West & NATO.
      - actionfromafar 3y ago
        Sanctions have already reduced the amounts of dollars Russia can get for its oil. Also, sanctions targetting the weapons industry is very important.
        wouldbecouldbe 3y ago
        Yet have they stopped people from dying? The Russian economy suffered, but adjusted. And it turned Russian people more more away from the West and enforced the us against them story of Putin.
        jacquesm 3y ago
        That's not what I hear from the people that I know on the other side of the divide. They know damn well why this is happening and who is in the driving seat but: they're scared, they don't want to be seen as unsupportive because people have already died because of that and they don't want to speak out because that's a surefire way of seeing your life completely screwed up or ended. Putin is where he is because he doesn't hesitate to kill each and every person that questions his authority, you can't expect people in an environment like that to go out onto the streets to demand the dictators head because it will end in a very predictable way. But the general impression I get is that people are broadly visibly supportive but in private a lot less so if not outright against it. This makes it very hard to measure the temperature in Russia. There is a good reason why Putin keeps murdering the opposition (or removing them in other ways): he knows that if there is a fair election and a half decent challenger that he's history.
        wouldbecouldbe 3y ago
        It depends on what part of the population, yeah young tech/internationally oriented people often yes. And also Russians in Europe often are anti-putin. But Russia is big and I also know a handful of people where he is the one who gave stability & although they are not stupid the idea that he is fully lying or wrong is hard to accept for them. They generally accept the Ukraine narrative the Russian Media portrays, since it's all they know; and they have no reason to trust the West more then mother Russia.
  - hackerlight 3y ago
    Like accepting Russian refugees, lots of them. Putin can't fight a war if he has no people. Ban them from defense sensitive industries for 1 generation and spread them around Europe, US and elsewhere. It's also the humane thing to do. Accept any LGBT and any Russian who lives outside of Moscow or St Petersburg who are being forcibly conscripted for the meat grinder at 10x higher rates (effectively murdered).
    - toomuchtodo 3y ago
      Indeed, drain the country of anyone of value while enabling better lives for these people. Extend comfortable retirement plans to anyone responsible for maintaining Russian nuclear hardware to drain the institutional knowledge needed for maintenance and operations; use this information to prepare to disarm it. Russia’s nuclear arsenal is currently the only thing holding the world back from taking aggressive action. Defang the cobra.
    - actionfromafar 3y ago
      It would be a grand and very effective move if done in a major way. Half-done it could be very dangerous - getting many well-connected and affluent people with nothing against in principle to the Russian invasion of Ukraine, but who don't like the practical consequences for themselves.
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
      - hackerlight 3y ago
        > Half-done it could be very dangerous - getting many well-connected and affluent people with nothing against in principle to the Russian invasion of Ukraine, but who don't like the practical consequences for themselves. Maybe disallow them from voting in local elections for 8 years after immigration so they have no political influence. And spread them around many countries so they're less than 1% of the general population. Even if they're pro-Putin it might still be a net good getting them out of Russia. It's now a war of attrition, the #1 thing that matters is manpower (manpower for conscription, and manpower for industrial production).
- empath-nirvana 3y ago
  Like cutting them off from the world financial system and seizing all their assets? Already done.
  - kulikalov 3y ago
    There's no cutoff. Only some inconveniences for population maybe.
  - EasyMark 3y ago
    western countries maybe india, china, middle east, and turkey are still all in on russia
  - dilyevsky 3y ago
    > Already done. Done on paper ;) Then europe looks the other way while their exports to kirgizstan and other stans mysteriously quadruple starting 2022

jacquesm 3y ago

There are other ways short of military intervention that can be quite effective.

wouldbecouldbe 3y ago
Like what? Boycots are in place, what remains? CIA mingling? Taking Putin out? Any of those things are hard to predict and allow you to confidently steer the country in a right direction. There arguably a lot of places, for instance South America & Iran, where those action were taken and only made things worse.
- jacquesm 3y ago
  Boycotts are definitely not in place and as long as we tolerate countries doing an end run around any kind of sanction without being sanctioned themselves they will remain ineffective.
  - wouldbecouldbe 3y ago
    Sanctions are a patronizing form of punishments that have hardly ever been effective and are hard to maintain over a long period of time. Take Iran, even when there is a huge international block working together against Iran, the people suffer yet the government continues but just in secret to develop their nuclear program. And if anything it spurred Iran's warlike actions in the region. To do it because of Navalny would just be a out of a wish to punish, not out of knowledge it would actually change the situation. And is it the role of the West to dish out punishment? Besides it would just be used by Putin to empower the internal story of the threat of the West & NATO.
    - actionfromafar 3y ago
      Sanctions have already reduced the amounts of dollars Russia can get for its oil. Also, sanctions targetting the weapons industry is very important.
      - wouldbecouldbe 3y ago
        Yet have they stopped people from dying? The Russian economy suffered, but adjusted. And it turned Russian people more more away from the West and enforced the us against them story of Putin.
        jacquesm 3y ago
        That's not what I hear from the people that I know on the other side of the divide. They know damn well why this is happening and who is in the driving seat but: they're scared, they don't want to be seen as unsupportive because people have already died because of that and they don't want to speak out because that's a surefire way of seeing your life completely screwed up or ended. Putin is where he is because he doesn't hesitate to kill each and every person that questions his authority, you can't expect people in an environment like that to go out onto the streets to demand the dictators head because it will end in a very predictable way. But the general impression I get is that people are broadly visibly supportive but in private a lot less so if not outright against it. This makes it very hard to measure the temperature in Russia. There is a good reason why Putin keeps murdering the opposition (or removing them in other ways): he knows that if there is a fair election and a half decent challenger that he's history.
        wouldbecouldbe 3y ago
        It depends on what part of the population, yeah young tech/internationally oriented people often yes. And also Russians in Europe often are anti-putin. But Russia is big and I also know a handful of people where he is the one who gave stability & although they are not stupid the idea that he is fully lying or wrong is hard to accept for them. They generally accept the Ukraine narrative the Russian Media portrays, since it's all they know; and they have no reason to trust the West more then mother Russia.
- hackerlight 3y ago
  Like accepting Russian refugees, lots of them. Putin can't fight a war if he has no people. Ban them from defense sensitive industries for 1 generation and spread them around Europe, US and elsewhere. It's also the humane thing to do. Accept any LGBT and any Russian who lives outside of Moscow or St Petersburg who are being forcibly conscripted for the meat grinder at 10x higher rates (effectively murdered).
  - toomuchtodo 3y ago
    Indeed, drain the country of anyone of value while enabling better lives for these people. Extend comfortable retirement plans to anyone responsible for maintaining Russian nuclear hardware to drain the institutional knowledge needed for maintenance and operations; use this information to prepare to disarm it. Russia’s nuclear arsenal is currently the only thing holding the world back from taking aggressive action. Defang the cobra.
  - actionfromafar 3y ago
    It would be a grand and very effective move if done in a major way. Half-done it could be very dangerous - getting many well-connected and affluent people with nothing against in principle to the Russian invasion of Ukraine, but who don't like the practical consequences for themselves.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - hackerlight 3y ago
      > Half-done it could be very dangerous - getting many well-connected and affluent people with nothing against in principle to the Russian invasion of Ukraine, but who don't like the practical consequences for themselves. Maybe disallow them from voting in local elections for 8 years after immigration so they have no political influence. And spread them around many countries so they're less than 1% of the general population. Even if they're pro-Putin it might still be a net good getting them out of Russia. It's now a war of attrition, the #1 thing that matters is manpower (manpower for conscription, and manpower for industrial production).
empath-nirvana 3y ago
Like cutting them off from the world financial system and seizing all their assets? Already done.
- kulikalov 3y ago
  There's no cutoff. Only some inconveniences for population maybe.
- EasyMark 3y ago
  western countries maybe india, china, middle east, and turkey are still all in on russia
- dilyevsky 3y ago
  > Already done. Done on paper ;) Then europe looks the other way while their exports to kirgizstan and other stans mysteriously quadruple starting 2022