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What do you want to world to do? Russia is already under increasingly crippling sanctions and many countries are funding + arming its opponent in a war.
by profunctor 3y ago
What do you want to world to do? Russia is already under increasingly crippling sanctions and many countries are funding + arming its opponent in a war.
- I_am_tiberius 3y agoEverything we can.
- schappim 3y agoWhat is left on the table?
- I_am_tiberius 3y ago- Europe is still consuming lots of gas that finances Russia's "defense" budget. - There's also a lot of other business with Russia that is not sanctioned. - Ukraine does not have enough ammunition. - There are so called neutral countries that should not be neutral.
- unmole 3y ago> There are so called neutral countries that should not be neutral. Why?
- schappim 3y agoI think you’ll find that even the neutral countries are providing support to Ukraine via the backdoor (eg Swiss with their armour going via DE). I believe the strategy that the powers at be are attempting is to keep Russia occupied in Ukraine for as long as possible without major escalation. Without assigning morality, it seems like a tough balancing act to achieve.
- Gasp0de 3y agoThe US could stop Taiwan from selling ammunition manufacturing machinery to Russia
- ed_balls 3y agoAnd Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Japan. Siemens CNC machines are making cruise missles instead of train parts.
- PedroBatista 3y agoAnd the US
- foofie 3y ago> What is left on the table? Arming Ukraine, tighten sanctions. The world has been treating Russia with kids gloves while it should be treating it as the drunken nuisance it is.
- joshsyn 3y ago[dead]
- lucasRW 3y agoNot so sure. I remember that pulling the plug on SWIFT was seen and talk about, as "the nuclear option" that no one thought would be used.
- thriftwy 3y agoIt wasn't done to the full extent (Raiffeisenbank for starters) and does look petty. "We are not confiscating your money from the bank but when you call to withdraw them, we will pretend we can't hear you on the phone".
- bbsz 3y agoThere're countless studies conducted during the Ukraine-Russia war pointing out what sectors to hit with full export ban to grind Russian military capability to a halt (e.g Austrian GFM manufacturing equipment for artillery barrels production). But this is very politicized discussion. Obviously companies will want to protect their interests and politicians prefer to make strong and visible statements in place of the working ones (like, freezing Russian assets outside of Russia does very little damage to Russia itself right now, compared to, say, decimating their heavy equipment supply chain) Business is separate from war (see Sweden's metallurgy industry during WW2).
- neovialogistics 3y agoMilitary intervention or something else?
- foofie 3y ago> Military intervention or something else? Military intervention is not required. Just give Ukraine what it needs to repel the Russian invasion and let Putin face his Russian czar fate.
- comonoid 3y agoYou cannot attack a country with nuclear arsenal. This is what really allows Putin to be so aggressive.
- KingOfCoders 3y agoA lot of things of "you cannot do" have already been proven to be false.
- comonoid 3y agoYou have only one try in this case.
- squarefoot 3y agoYou can attack a country with nuclear weapons, provided you use only conventional ones, then threaten to escalate to nuclear if they do that. Nuclear weapons are the ultimate threat which would ensure mutual severe damage if not destruction if used, therefore nobody uses them first unless they're completely nuts, or they're cornered. Putin is a criminal but he's far from being crazy, and as for now is surely also far from being cornered. Surgical attacks in Russia with conventional weapons would undermine his powers and create enough public disapproval to facilitate a coup from within, but should be done with extreme care and up to a certain point in order not to trigger a nuclear response. Sadly, even using conventional weapons, the number of deaths would be huge; it is entirely possible that Putin would sacrifice millions of innocents sending them to the front line before giving up, also because when dictators give up they usually die shortly after.
- ed_balls 3y agoThere isn't much more we can do. NATO could end Russia with more weapons and making a defence deal with Saudis in exchange for price dumping of oil and gas[1]. But no one wants a nuclear state to fail. Moscow must be terrified of another coup d'etat, hence Navalny's death. [1]extracting, insurance and delivery cost for Saudis are about $17 and for Russia it maybe as high as $40 now.
- mamonster 3y agoWhy would Saudi go against Russia for doing something they do themselves, i.e murdering opposition(Khashogi)? Similarly, why would this be the trigger when the Saudi experience shows US is fine with it?
- lukasm 3y agoIn the grand scheme of things it doesn't matter. The number one problem for SA is security. The state is fragile. Wahabi, Muslim Brotherhood, tribes that hate House of Saud. Secondly, Iran possess a direct threat, Houthi could destroy critical infrastructure. $$$$ spent on military doesn't help - they lost the war in Yemen. SA is on a lookout for allies: Defence partnership with Pakistan which probably end up in a nuclear technology transfer or purchase of atomic weapons. If USA would give better security guarantees to SA (similar to Jordan) with some tech transfer, SA would increase the output by 2x, which would result in $45 per barrel.
- mamonster 3y agoWahhabism isn't an internal threat to Saudi, like at all. It's their export ideology and it is not at all appealing to the citizens of one of the best welfare states in the world. Wahhabism in actual Saudi is completely different to what gets exported. As for Iran, seems like recently there has been a rapprochement(mediated by China), will need to see where it leads. It's pretty clear to me SA is on the lookout for allies, but US is low on their list, as they realised(correctly) that all the human rights issues in Russia exist there as well and might get tackled by the West in a decarbonised future.
- belter 3y ago[flagged]
- aubanel 3y agoSystematically calling russian people Orcs is the worst dehumanising things to do IMO. I have nothing to do with that conflict but I don't like how confident some people are that they're on the side of the Good, thus that they could do whatever to their opponents. (Cf Kasparov who wanted to nuke Russia at the beginning of the war)
- belter 3y agoI called Putin an Orc not Russians, even if a majority supports Putin and that is also not in doubt.
- dindobre 3y agoThe most dehumanizing thing would be to compile all the material that shows what atrocities russians have carried out in Ukraine and show it in Western schools during history classes, would pretty much guarantee nobody wanting anything to do with russians for each generation that is shown the material. And this is ignoring all precedent russian history. It's very easy to look at what's happening from afar and call the term "orc" dehumanizing, and yes I share the opinion that being too confident in being on the good side is wrong, but we must also not fall into moral relativism were we see a horde of barbarians blackmailing the world with nuclear weapons and we are worried about using the term orc. Humans are born with equal rights (at least in some countries) but aren't equal in capacity, character, judgment, and so on.
- worksonmine 3y agoLong before the invasion there were atrocities committed in the war. Civilians killed by literal nazis and the world cheering them on. All because a pro-russian won the election and the pro western candidate was too impatient to wait until the next chance. Geopolitics is ugly and the world is run by psychopaths. You're siding with one side, and asking to indoctrinate our children to hate the other, just like you've probably been your entire life. We're always at war with the east. Endless proxy wars and more division is not the solution. We like to believe we're on the good side in the west but I don't, we brought this war on Ukraine with empty promises and now that shit hit the fan we let them fend on their own, and taking the opportunity to test some weapons. I like to hold my side to a higher standard than the "enemy".
- mschuster91 3y ago> Russia is already under increasingly crippling sanctions and many countries are funding + arming its opponent in a war. Supply more weapons to Ukraine? No matter what, Ukraine lacks resources everywhere. Tanks, long-range missiles, anti-air defense, artillery, ammunition. Alternatively, we can do whatever we can to assist the Russian opposition. A lot of them have been forced into exile. Give them money and access to even a bit of the juicy stuff the CIA is bound to have on the entire Russian elite...
- InCityDreams 3y agoLeave Ukraine?
- belter 3y agoYou could call it the Munich Agreement 2.0... - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munich_Agreement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munich_Agreement
- AndyMcConachie 3y agoAnd Julian Assange is still in prison. Let's not pretend that Russia is the only country on the planet that houses political prisoners in its jails. I'm sure I'll get downvoted to hell for this, but seriously, the west isn't any better.
- JohnBooty 3y agoZero large entities (countries, corporations, political parties, etc) have clean records. We still need to fight -- or at the very least, call out -- injustice when it happens. Pointing out Russia's misdeeds doesn't mean one thinks the West is innocent. It certainly is not. That's why you're being downvoted.
- helpfulContrib 3y ago[dead]
- bitcharmer 3y ago> Russia is already under increasingly crippling sanctions The sanctions don't look that crippling from where I'm standing. Russia keeps intensifying their war effort in Ukraine
- inference-lord 3y agoThat's different from having a working country and well functioning economy. Not that you're wrong, just I don't think that is in indication of the sanctions being effective or not.
- jacquesm 3y agoThey're not nearly crippling enough. But the problem is that there are a lot of sanction breakers and that those get away with it because we allow them to. That could and probably should stop. Obviously that will hurt the West as well but I'm ok with that, there are no principles without a cost.
- SXX 3y ago> What do you want to world to do? Support Ukraine more. Support refugees from Russia. Enact personal sanctions against 6000 war-enablers that Navalny team prepared: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6000_List https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6000_List And their families and kids who all keep their money in US, UK and EU.
- yolo3000 3y agoRefugees from Russia? They are free to travel to many countries, there are plenty of Russian expats in Europe, who also happen to support Putin
- SXX 3y agoThere are a lot of political immigrants from Russia as well as people who trying to avoid being drawn into army. And for people who left Russia back in 2022 it's just basically impossible to get any visas anywhere simply because you can't apply for one outside of Russia without having some other residency permit that' impossible to get in Georgia / Turkey and many other countries. EU still provide visas to tons of people who continue to live in Russia and pay taxes in Russia, but dont give any visas to people who left and dont support Putins regime.
- throw-the-towel 3y agoAnd a tourist visa is hard to get even with a residence permit. The consuls (rightly) see you as an immigration hazard. After all, you've already moved countries one time, who's to say you won't repeat the trick? Meanwhile in Moscow, you have a good chance to get a 5-year visa from France. Fun fact: the exact same phenomenon was being ridiculed by the White Russians, back in the 1920s. European countries were suspecting them of being Bolshevik, yet the actual Bolsheviks could come just fine. Now, of course tourist visas are not really relevant for emigration, but it's an example of the attitude shown towards us.
- rcatcher 3y agoRussians need a travel visa to go to any Western country and most of the world. Some EU countries are banned Russians from entering; the US is not issuing travel visas in Russia anymore.
- belter 3y ago> Russia is already under increasingly crippling sanctions You are surely joking... "IMF raises Russia growth outlook as war boosts economy - New 2024 forecast of 2.6% rise doubles previous prediction and prompts questions over sanctions against Moscow" - https://www.ft.com/content/21a5be9c-afaa-495f-b7af-cf937093144d https://www.ft.com/content/21a5be9c-afaa-495f-b7af-cf9370931...
- The_Colonel 3y agoIt's a war economy. Russia builds a lot of tanks, mans a large army, pays a lot to the families of the fallen, it all adds a lot to the GDP. But those tanks are going to burn, they don't add value to the economy, won't be exchanged for foreign goods. If you dig a hole into the ground, you increase the GDP, war destruction is not much different in its value creation. GDP is not a perfect measure of an economy.
- mopsi 3y ago> GDP is not a perfect measure of an economy. An often-used example of this is the crash of oil tanker Exxon Valdez, which in terms of GDP is one of the most productive sea voyages of all time.
- empath-nirvana 3y agoA) Russia is large enough that it doesn't really need foreign trade to have an economy B) We -- ie "the west" have no control over what India and China does wrt russia. If they keep buying Russian oil, we can't stop them.
- SXX 3y agoWest can't even stop it's banks from servicing Russia financial transactions or actually ban sales of heavy machinery that used to produce weapons...
- rsynnott 3y agoThe sanctions on Russia can be ratcheted up a lot more, though there are risks to this.
- pier25 3y agoWhat crippling sanctions? It's business as usual in Russia. The Moscow malls are full of people.