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This article is so frustrating on data presentation: > To make the minimum national wage we have to make at least four deliveries, which is not as easy as it s

by msravi 3y ago

This article is so frustrating on data presentation: > To make the minimum national wage we have to make at least four deliveries, which is not as easy as it seems. On what timeline? Per hour? Per day? > Delivery Job UK claimed its delivery riders were braving the "cold, rain and absurd distances" for deliveries paying "ridiculous values", ranging from £2.80 to £3.15. On what distance? "Absurd" is not a quantity. > ...striking Deliveroo riders wanted an increase to a minimum of £5. Per delivery? Per hour? Per kilometer? Per mile? > On a Friday night you could make £100 over 4-5 hours, now that's gone First data point that actually makes some sense. But what do they make now? Why leave an obvious question unanswered and hanging? > With a minimum fee of £2.80, most might only be making three orders an hour, and then they have to subtract their costs too. Some are making £7 an hour, which in London is barely liveable Ah, finally! Why do news organizations do this?

gamblor956 3y ago
On what timeline? Per hour? Per day? When discussing wages, wage conditions are commonly understood to mean "per hour" since wages are hourly. Per delivery? Per hour? Per kilometer? Per mile? This was actually discussed in the article. Per delivery.
- itake 3y ago
  "wage" in the UK usually means per week or per month. https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/wage_1 https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/englis...
  - Celtis 3y ago
    When talking about the minimum wage, that’s usually per hour as seen on gov.uk https://www.gov.uk/national-minimum-wage-rates https://www.gov.uk/national-minimum-wage-rates
  - saaaaaam 3y ago
    National minimum wage is very explicitly an hourly rate established in law. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/minimum-wage-rates-for-2024 https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/minimum-wage-rate...
- mytailorisrich 3y ago
  It is anyway obvious that they mean 'per hour' when the number is as low as '4 deliveries'. That's the whole issue with delivering food: It takes time and is extremely low productivity.
  - msravi 3y ago
    Very dependent on traffic and city, and I don't know what local conditions are like. In Bangalore, for example, making 2 deliveries in a radius of 4 km in an hour will be an achievement and 1 is likely to be the norm. So when the article says 4 deliveries, I have no context without googling for traffic conditions in London or Bermingham or whatever. Similarly for wage, I don't know what the national minimum wage is in the UK or how it's defined. It's not like they're cutting a whole lot of print by adding a /hr to those numbers.
    - bemusedthrow75 3y ago
      As a general rule I would suspect that making four deliveries per hour in a settlement of any size is difficult, because the size of the delivery pitch is going to vary with demand. National minimum wage in the UK is not enough to remotely live on, most places that have an established deliveroo market.
    - mytailorisrich 3y ago
      You're trying too hard to find issues. This is an article on British events on a British website. Those "4 deliveries" did make it obvious they meant minimum wage "per hour" (and it's implied that's it's not easy), even without British context. [traffic, radius only matter wrt. making it hard or easier, but again in context it is implied that 4 deliveries an hour are not easy] But, anyway, this is all details. The big picture is that food delivery is very low productivity so it is very hard to earn much.
      - msravi 3y ago
        > You're trying too hard to find issues. No. It's what I felt as I first read the article. > This is an article on British events on a British website. Of course. But it was posted on HN with an international audience. Perhaps BBC needs to geofence and make their articles unavailable globally. > Those "4 deliveries" did make it obvious No, it did not, and I explained why. 8 deliveries a day would be hard in Bangalore in a 4 km radius. Besides, it is still unclear what the delivery radius is in the article.
- Suppafly 3y ago
  It makes no sense to talk about this as per hour though when it's gig jobs that are worked sporadically. 4 deliveries per hour isn't realistic either, so there really is no way to know what they are talking about.
ocharles 3y ago
> On what timeline? Per hour? Per day? Surely a pinch of critical thinking answers this? 4 deliveries a day isn't going to pay a daily minimum wage. If it did, then we wouldn't have this situation - surely most riders manage more than one delivery every 2 hours and make more than the minimum wage!
- adamm255 3y ago
  When numbers are being presented being clear never hurts. Critical thinking isn’t a key skill a lot of the population has. I’d assume this was per hour or possibly per shift. If they did a 4-5 hour shift in an evening etc. Best never to make assumptions in these cases though…
- msravi 3y ago
  I'll ignore the slight on critical thinking and point you to this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39394839 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39394839 TLDR: 4 deliveries does not make the "per hour" derivable by critical thinking without further data.
- viraptor 3y ago
  Critical thinking will hopefully both let you reject 4/day and the idea that one of the other answers is obvious and unambiguous. If the data is incomplete, treat it as incomplete.
- mirekrusin 3y ago
  There is this stupid tipping in the equation as well. It should be banned.
tyho 3y ago
When the narrative you are trying to push is light on facts, you avoid facts in your writing.
- moritzwarhier 3y ago
  Since when is reporting on a worker's strike equivalent to "pushing a narrative"? Are you pushing a narrative?
cjs_ac 3y ago
Mainstream journalism is a game of 'say what you see'. Journalists almost always have no deeper understanding of an issue than what they present in their articles, except in political stories, in which case they have pretty good knowledge of the factional relationships between politicians but know little of the policy detail.
gaws 3y ago
> Why do news organizations do this? They have terrible editors.

by msravi 3y ago

gamblor956 3y ago

On what timeline? Per hour? Per day? When discussing wages, wage conditions are commonly understood to mean "per hour" since wages are hourly. Per delivery? Per hour? Per kilometer? Per mile? This was actually discussed in the article. Per delivery.

itake 3y ago
"wage" in the UK usually means per week or per month. https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/wage_1 https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/englis...
- Celtis 3y ago
  When talking about the minimum wage, that’s usually per hour as seen on gov.uk https://www.gov.uk/national-minimum-wage-rates https://www.gov.uk/national-minimum-wage-rates
- saaaaaam 3y ago
  National minimum wage is very explicitly an hourly rate established in law. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/minimum-wage-rates-for-2024 https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/minimum-wage-rate...
mytailorisrich 3y ago
It is anyway obvious that they mean 'per hour' when the number is as low as '4 deliveries'. That's the whole issue with delivering food: It takes time and is extremely low productivity.
- msravi 3y ago
  Very dependent on traffic and city, and I don't know what local conditions are like. In Bangalore, for example, making 2 deliveries in a radius of 4 km in an hour will be an achievement and 1 is likely to be the norm. So when the article says 4 deliveries, I have no context without googling for traffic conditions in London or Bermingham or whatever. Similarly for wage, I don't know what the national minimum wage is in the UK or how it's defined. It's not like they're cutting a whole lot of print by adding a /hr to those numbers.
  - bemusedthrow75 3y ago
    As a general rule I would suspect that making four deliveries per hour in a settlement of any size is difficult, because the size of the delivery pitch is going to vary with demand. National minimum wage in the UK is not enough to remotely live on, most places that have an established deliveroo market.
  - mytailorisrich 3y ago
    You're trying too hard to find issues. This is an article on British events on a British website. Those "4 deliveries" did make it obvious they meant minimum wage "per hour" (and it's implied that's it's not easy), even without British context. [traffic, radius only matter wrt. making it hard or easier, but again in context it is implied that 4 deliveries an hour are not easy] But, anyway, this is all details. The big picture is that food delivery is very low productivity so it is very hard to earn much.
    - msravi 3y ago
      > You're trying too hard to find issues. No. It's what I felt as I first read the article. > This is an article on British events on a British website. Of course. But it was posted on HN with an international audience. Perhaps BBC needs to geofence and make their articles unavailable globally. > Those "4 deliveries" did make it obvious No, it did not, and I explained why. 8 deliveries a day would be hard in Bangalore in a 4 km radius. Besides, it is still unclear what the delivery radius is in the article.
Suppafly 3y ago
It makes no sense to talk about this as per hour though when it's gig jobs that are worked sporadically. 4 deliveries per hour isn't realistic either, so there really is no way to know what they are talking about.

ocharles 3y ago

> On what timeline? Per hour? Per day? Surely a pinch of critical thinking answers this? 4 deliveries a day isn't going to pay a daily minimum wage. If it did, then we wouldn't have this situation - surely most riders manage more than one delivery every 2 hours and make more than the minimum wage!

adamm255 3y ago
When numbers are being presented being clear never hurts. Critical thinking isn’t a key skill a lot of the population has. I’d assume this was per hour or possibly per shift. If they did a 4-5 hour shift in an evening etc. Best never to make assumptions in these cases though…
msravi 3y ago
I'll ignore the slight on critical thinking and point you to this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39394839 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39394839 TLDR: 4 deliveries does not make the "per hour" derivable by critical thinking without further data.
viraptor 3y ago
Critical thinking will hopefully both let you reject 4/day and the idea that one of the other answers is obvious and unambiguous. If the data is incomplete, treat it as incomplete.
mirekrusin 3y ago
There is this stupid tipping in the equation as well. It should be banned.

tyho 3y ago

When the narrative you are trying to push is light on facts, you avoid facts in your writing.

moritzwarhier 3y ago
Since when is reporting on a worker's strike equivalent to "pushing a narrative"? Are you pushing a narrative?

cjs_ac 3y ago

Mainstream journalism is a game of 'say what you see'. Journalists almost always have no deeper understanding of an issue than what they present in their articles, except in political stories, in which case they have pretty good knowledge of the factional relationships between politicians but know little of the policy detail.

gaws 3y ago

> Why do news organizations do this? They have terrible editors.