5 ms·

I think PWAs are an outright failure and a technical solution looking for a problem. I don’t even know where to find one. For one thing, if Apple is complying

by dangus 3y ago

I think PWAs are an outright failure and a technical solution looking for a problem. I don’t even know where to find one. For one thing, if Apple is complying with the EU’s alternative App Store and browser engine mandate, they’re even less useful than before. Why do I as a user want a PWA when I could have a native app?

johnnyanmac 3y ago
I mean, the problem is the same one introduced since the two big mobile platforms were established: "I want to publish to IOS/Android as a native app without needing to have two separate builds to manage". PWAs make that pitch to those who already have websites to triple dip. It never has to promise to be as good as a native app, just "good enough". Does it live up to that? YMMV. It's probably fine for very simple apps, probably comes apart at the seams for anything trying to look modern or have fancier functionality.
- claytongulick 3y ago
  I've built large, complex and beautiful healthcare apps as a PWA. The only two things I've ever missed from native functionality are: - background geolocation - push notifications on ios The second one was fixed recently. In contrast, from what I've seen 90+ percent of apps I see in the app stores would be better as a web page / PWA.
  - dangus 3y ago
    But the real question is where most of your users live. I’d take a decent wager that most of your users are most familiar with apps and would prefer installing full apps. Doesn’t matter that most apps would be better suited to being a web page or PWA if that’s not where the users are. That’s kind of like saying that PCs are better at gaming than consoles. Yes, that’s true, but that’s not where the majority of users are.
    - johnnyanmac 3y ago
      I mean, PWAs aren't made with the goal to maximize User UX. It's a cost saving measure like any other solution that isn't making 2 dedicated native apps for IOS/Android.it won't get as much traffic as a native app, but it's almost "free" to deploy. To use the gaming console example, it's not unlike using an emulator to launch your game on PC (if you could somehow monetize an emulated rom). It's not the ideal experience, but it requires very little extra work.
      - callalex 3y ago
        I find PWAs to have a vastly superior UX. I can trust that they are running in the strongest sandbox my device has to offer. I don’t have to download anything, and I don’t have to update anything. I don’t have to remember any account passwords to install anything, and my ad blockers and password managers just work inside them. I don’t have to worry about arbitrary content policies of Apple or Google, the app can just show me whatever it wants.
    - kristiandupont 3y ago
      >But the real question is where most of your users live. Well, they "live" on their phone. I would just put a button on my website to install the app, users would find that easily.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- tie_ 3y ago
  The "two big mobile platforms" were not established by an irreversible act of God. Before the current time of two platforms, there was a time of (mostly-)one platform i.e. the Web, and that platform had quite a few nice features. One of the small conveniences is indeed that you didn't need to develop the same thing twice, which made the barrier to entry much lower. The functionality that you were exposing to users did not need to pass a review at one of two US tech giant companies, which could reject publishing it for any or no sensible reason at all. You were not forced to pay 30% of your revenue to the gatekeepers of the platform. You were not banned to invite users to buy your product in any way that works for them, even if it meant sending you checks over carrier pigeons. There was no _chokepoints_ that a single company could squeeze to further its own interests (after the collapse of IE).
  - dickersnoodle 3y ago
    >There was no _chokepoints_ that a single company could squeeze to further its own interests (after the collapse of IE). Google Chrome would like a word...
jc_dc 3y ago
PWA’s on Android can be installed directly from a website…it’s awesome, less friction and less scammy than the Play Store. On iOS you need to use the Share > Add to Home Screen which normies have no clue about. You’ll find out if the site supports PWA features AFTER you add it to your Home Screen. This of course is done entirely on purpose to make them harder to find and less appealing than the revenue generating App Store. For me, I use iPhone entirely because pixel doesn’t support cardav and caldav out of the box…if I can’t use PWA’s on my phone then I’m going back to android cause I can solve the email problem easier than I can solve the productivity tools not being available via PWA’s.
- dangus 3y ago
  Google should in theory have the same play store revenue motivation to hide PWAs, right? Granted, they also want people to stay on the web to continue using Google.com, so I guess those are two competing priorities. That to me is a bit of an indicator that Apple just doesn’t believe in the merits of the technology. I think they might be asking the same question in asking: what problem is this solving? Every platform with a web browser has a better way to run applications, which is to just run an application. A web site that is masquerading as an installed application is basically just a less capable application. As a side note, I’m also not really sure how an app store can be considered scammier than the entire web. The web is a Wild West with far fewer “rules” than the Play Store.
  - JacobThreeThree 3y ago
    >Google should in theory have the same play store revenue motivation to hide PWAs, right? Google in theory has a financial motivation to make their competitor Apple look like the bad actor.
  - jc_dc 3y ago
    Google have an interest in moving people away from desktop applications because they don’t have a desktop OS (not counting Chromebook). We run 3 SaaS apps. One is strictly native, and the other two are strictly web. Writing for 4 platforms on the native app is an extremely expensive exercise and then we are also subject to the insanity that is the App Store. Long story here, everything from App Store review times on mission critical software to the fact that their billing mechanism simply doesn’t work for B2B SaaS…and by the way, we get zero traffic from the App Store as that’s simply not where our customers are looking for the solution we provide. Fortunately, bulk of our customers start on desktop where we self distribute (code signing on windows and notarization on mac) with ev ssl on marketing sites. Why is the App Store scammy over the open web…search for any number of popular apps and look at how many have been cloned. Sure, you can do this on the web with paid ads and enough SEO effort but it’s much harder. To this day, Apple continue to allow keyword stuffing, advertising on trademarked names, and blatant copyright infringement in app descriptions and even I (fairly tech savvy) accidentally purchased a clone of poly bridge for my kid cause they’ll list the clone above the real one on an exact term search. What was apples response when I said I purchased the wrong app? Tough cookies! This is the same reason I hate shopping on Amazon. I simply prefer to have a direct relationship with the companies I buy things from, and from what I can tell, our customers prefer have a direct relationship with us. But back to why PWA’s are awesome…simply put, iteration time. We can publish dozens of improvements every day and roll back instantly when an issue arises. We simply can’t do that with native as long as the Apple / Google act as a gate keepers. When we allow proper sideloading without the scare tactics and dirty tricks, we’ll take the time to build native again.
TheCapeGreek 3y ago
>technical solution looking for a problem In some regards yes. In practical regards they're a threat to app store margins (on all app stores, not just Apple), so there's no incentive to truly support them other than developers being loud about it. >I don’t even know where to find one. Because Apple has crippled the ability for you to use them, so developers can't really spend time working on them. Chicken and egg problem. >if Apple is complying They're not really, they're twisting and turning as much as possible to look like complying but make the desired outcomes even more difficult to achieve.
- brookst 3y ago
  Isn’t all regulation about activities, not outcomes? If a regulator enforces a ban on dihydrogen monoxide in a misguided attempt to reduce global warming, should companies comply with the regulation or the presumed intent? The EU is demonstrating the folly of legislation tech product design at this level of detail.
  - jsjohnst 3y ago
    > dihydrogen monoxide Heh! Also known as hydroxyl acid. It’s the major component of acid rain. ;)
- scarface_74 3y ago
  It came out in the Epic trial that 90% of App Store revenue comes from in app purchases of pay to win games. They are not going to all of the sudden move to PWAs and on top of that, they already use cross platform engines.
- dangus 3y ago
  I also don’t know where to find one on my Windows PC.
anon373839 3y ago
You think that a technology that allows mobile apps to be developed and distributed in a way that’s secure, free and open, and platform-independent is a solution in search of a problem? Honestly?
- scarface_74 3y ago
  Yes, just like every other cross platform GUI has been a dumpster fire since Java Swing all the way up to Electron.
mgoetzke 3y ago
It allows us from our webapp to easily allow a user to i.e. PIN a section of the app onto the homescreen (e.g import photos into this folder).. really nice.

by dangus 3y ago

johnnyanmac 3y ago

I mean, the problem is the same one introduced since the two big mobile platforms were established: "I want to publish to IOS/Android as a native app without needing to have two separate builds to manage". PWAs make that pitch to those who already have websites to triple dip. It never has to promise to be as good as a native app, just "good enough". Does it live up to that? YMMV. It's probably fine for very simple apps, probably comes apart at the seams for anything trying to look modern or have fancier functionality.

claytongulick 3y ago
I've built large, complex and beautiful healthcare apps as a PWA. The only two things I've ever missed from native functionality are: - background geolocation - push notifications on ios The second one was fixed recently. In contrast, from what I've seen 90+ percent of apps I see in the app stores would be better as a web page / PWA.
- dangus 3y ago
  But the real question is where most of your users live. I’d take a decent wager that most of your users are most familiar with apps and would prefer installing full apps. Doesn’t matter that most apps would be better suited to being a web page or PWA if that’s not where the users are. That’s kind of like saying that PCs are better at gaming than consoles. Yes, that’s true, but that’s not where the majority of users are.
  - johnnyanmac 3y ago
    I mean, PWAs aren't made with the goal to maximize User UX. It's a cost saving measure like any other solution that isn't making 2 dedicated native apps for IOS/Android.it won't get as much traffic as a native app, but it's almost "free" to deploy. To use the gaming console example, it's not unlike using an emulator to launch your game on PC (if you could somehow monetize an emulated rom). It's not the ideal experience, but it requires very little extra work.
    - callalex 3y ago
      I find PWAs to have a vastly superior UX. I can trust that they are running in the strongest sandbox my device has to offer. I don’t have to download anything, and I don’t have to update anything. I don’t have to remember any account passwords to install anything, and my ad blockers and password managers just work inside them. I don’t have to worry about arbitrary content policies of Apple or Google, the app can just show me whatever it wants.
  - kristiandupont 3y ago
    >But the real question is where most of your users live. Well, they "live" on their phone. I would just put a button on my website to install the app, users would find that easily.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
tie_ 3y ago
The "two big mobile platforms" were not established by an irreversible act of God. Before the current time of two platforms, there was a time of (mostly-)one platform i.e. the Web, and that platform had quite a few nice features. One of the small conveniences is indeed that you didn't need to develop the same thing twice, which made the barrier to entry much lower. The functionality that you were exposing to users did not need to pass a review at one of two US tech giant companies, which could reject publishing it for any or no sensible reason at all. You were not forced to pay 30% of your revenue to the gatekeepers of the platform. You were not banned to invite users to buy your product in any way that works for them, even if it meant sending you checks over carrier pigeons. There was no _chokepoints_ that a single company could squeeze to further its own interests (after the collapse of IE).
- dickersnoodle 3y ago
  >There was no _chokepoints_ that a single company could squeeze to further its own interests (after the collapse of IE). Google Chrome would like a word...

jc_dc 3y ago

PWA’s on Android can be installed directly from a website…it’s awesome, less friction and less scammy than the Play Store. On iOS you need to use the Share > Add to Home Screen which normies have no clue about. You’ll find out if the site supports PWA features AFTER you add it to your Home Screen. This of course is done entirely on purpose to make them harder to find and less appealing than the revenue generating App Store. For me, I use iPhone entirely because pixel doesn’t support cardav and caldav out of the box…if I can’t use PWA’s on my phone then I’m going back to android cause I can solve the email problem easier than I can solve the productivity tools not being available via PWA’s.

dangus 3y ago
Google should in theory have the same play store revenue motivation to hide PWAs, right? Granted, they also want people to stay on the web to continue using Google.com, so I guess those are two competing priorities. That to me is a bit of an indicator that Apple just doesn’t believe in the merits of the technology. I think they might be asking the same question in asking: what problem is this solving? Every platform with a web browser has a better way to run applications, which is to just run an application. A web site that is masquerading as an installed application is basically just a less capable application. As a side note, I’m also not really sure how an app store can be considered scammier than the entire web. The web is a Wild West with far fewer “rules” than the Play Store.
- JacobThreeThree 3y ago
  >Google should in theory have the same play store revenue motivation to hide PWAs, right? Google in theory has a financial motivation to make their competitor Apple look like the bad actor.
- jc_dc 3y ago
  Google have an interest in moving people away from desktop applications because they don’t have a desktop OS (not counting Chromebook). We run 3 SaaS apps. One is strictly native, and the other two are strictly web. Writing for 4 platforms on the native app is an extremely expensive exercise and then we are also subject to the insanity that is the App Store. Long story here, everything from App Store review times on mission critical software to the fact that their billing mechanism simply doesn’t work for B2B SaaS…and by the way, we get zero traffic from the App Store as that’s simply not where our customers are looking for the solution we provide. Fortunately, bulk of our customers start on desktop where we self distribute (code signing on windows and notarization on mac) with ev ssl on marketing sites. Why is the App Store scammy over the open web…search for any number of popular apps and look at how many have been cloned. Sure, you can do this on the web with paid ads and enough SEO effort but it’s much harder. To this day, Apple continue to allow keyword stuffing, advertising on trademarked names, and blatant copyright infringement in app descriptions and even I (fairly tech savvy) accidentally purchased a clone of poly bridge for my kid cause they’ll list the clone above the real one on an exact term search. What was apples response when I said I purchased the wrong app? Tough cookies! This is the same reason I hate shopping on Amazon. I simply prefer to have a direct relationship with the companies I buy things from, and from what I can tell, our customers prefer have a direct relationship with us. But back to why PWA’s are awesome…simply put, iteration time. We can publish dozens of improvements every day and roll back instantly when an issue arises. We simply can’t do that with native as long as the Apple / Google act as a gate keepers. When we allow proper sideloading without the scare tactics and dirty tricks, we’ll take the time to build native again.

TheCapeGreek 3y ago

>technical solution looking for a problem In some regards yes. In practical regards they're a threat to app store margins (on all app stores, not just Apple), so there's no incentive to truly support them other than developers being loud about it. >I don’t even know where to find one. Because Apple has crippled the ability for you to use them, so developers can't really spend time working on them. Chicken and egg problem. >if Apple is complying They're not really, they're twisting and turning as much as possible to look like complying but make the desired outcomes even more difficult to achieve.

brookst 3y ago
Isn’t all regulation about activities, not outcomes? If a regulator enforces a ban on dihydrogen monoxide in a misguided attempt to reduce global warming, should companies comply with the regulation or the presumed intent? The EU is demonstrating the folly of legislation tech product design at this level of detail.
- jsjohnst 3y ago
  > dihydrogen monoxide Heh! Also known as hydroxyl acid. It’s the major component of acid rain. ;)
scarface_74 3y ago
It came out in the Epic trial that 90% of App Store revenue comes from in app purchases of pay to win games. They are not going to all of the sudden move to PWAs and on top of that, they already use cross platform engines.
dangus 3y ago
I also don’t know where to find one on my Windows PC.

anon373839 3y ago

You think that a technology that allows mobile apps to be developed and distributed in a way that’s secure, free and open, and platform-independent is a solution in search of a problem? Honestly?

scarface_74 3y ago
Yes, just like every other cross platform GUI has been a dumpster fire since Java Swing all the way up to Electron.

mgoetzke 3y ago

It allows us from our webapp to easily allow a user to i.e. PIN a section of the app onto the homescreen (e.g import photos into this folder).. really nice.