21 ms·

C++. I think Java is pretty close in nastiness but I haven't used it in a while.

by rtpg 3y ago

lucideer 3y ago
Java is Maven or Gradle mostly. Neither perfectly ideal but there's clear choices by subcommunitues (e.g. Android =>Gradle) & churn is low. Not at all an awful situation. C++ is mostly unmanaged in practice which is obviously bad (though Python is the only "modern" language where I regularly see published projects without so much as a requirements.txt so very comparable). However looking at the actual options for C++, Conan seems pretty clear cut & not awful in itself. So... not as bad as Python by any measure imo.
- rtpg 3y ago
  I think maven and pypi + pip are similar levels of pain. Like plenty of people just use pip or poetry and are fine. It’s totally bad faith to claim that this is all orders of magnitude worse
  - lucideer 3y ago
    The package manifest for maven is pom.xml. Sure it's got quirks - I might have the wrong version of a maven plugin it's got required directives for or something - but it's always there, it's declarative, and dependencies are listed in a consistent, predictable, universally parsable format (I don't even need maven, it's XML). It's also highly configurable via .mvn at project level so if you check that in chances are you can work around many weirdnesses. And it's always there. If your IDE didn't generate it your maven archetype did. What's the source of truth in any random pip project that I should look to as a package manifest? requirements.txt? Setup.cfg? Pyproject.toml? Setup.py? What if they're all there? Do they all agree? Should I cascade or defer to one? Merge the trees? What if none of the above exist? Pip certainly doesn't ensure any does. As for parsing them, requirements.txt is the most barebones near-informationless manifest out there, and setup.py is init code - good luck trying to automate reading the dep tree reliably without side effects.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]

C++. I think Java is pretty close in nastiness but I haven't used it in a while.

by rtpg 3y ago

C++. I think Java is pretty close in nastiness but I haven't used it in a while.

Java is Maven or Gradle mostly. Neither perfectly ideal but there's clear choices by subcommunitues (e.g. Android =>Gradle) & churn is low. Not at all an awful situation. C++ is mostly unmanaged in practice which is obviously bad (though Python is the only "modern" language where I regularly see published projects without so much as a requirements.txt so very comparable). However looking at the actual options for C++, Conan seems pretty clear cut & not awful in itself. So... not as bad as Python by any measure imo.

rtpg 3y ago
I think maven and pypi + pip are similar levels of pain. Like plenty of people just use pip or poetry and are fine. It’s totally bad faith to claim that this is all orders of magnitude worse
- lucideer 3y ago
  The package manifest for maven is pom.xml. Sure it's got quirks - I might have the wrong version of a maven plugin it's got required directives for or something - but it's always there, it's declarative, and dependencies are listed in a consistent, predictable, universally parsable format (I don't even need maven, it's XML). It's also highly configurable via .mvn at project level so if you check that in chances are you can work around many weirdnesses. And it's always there. If your IDE didn't generate it your maven archetype did. What's the source of truth in any random pip project that I should look to as a package manifest? requirements.txt? Setup.cfg? Pyproject.toml? Setup.py? What if they're all there? Do they all agree? Should I cascade or defer to one? Merge the trees? What if none of the above exist? Pip certainly doesn't ensure any does. As for parsing them, requirements.txt is the most barebones near-informationless manifest out there, and setup.py is init code - good luck trying to automate reading the dep tree reliably without side effects.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]