4 ms·

>We still don't have any modern games like Lemmings or the "classic" 2D Worms That's like complaining we haven't made a modern Elvis Presley or Michael Jackson

>We still don't have any modern games like Lemmings or the "classic" 2D Worms That's like complaining we haven't made a modern Elvis Presley or Michael Jackson or that we haven't remade The Godfather. If the originals are so simple, accessible, and so good, what more could you bring to the table with a new modern version to guarantee a big sales success to offset the risk and cost of starting such and endeavor when gamers can just play the existing originals. Not everything needs a reboot/remake, especially if perfection has already been achieved.

selcuka 3y ago
> If the originals are so good and can be played today on modern systems, what more could you bring to the table with modern versions to guarantee a big success. That's a weird deduction. Everything can be improved upon. Why do we have loads of modern games like Doom, for example? It was good too, and can be played today on modern systems.
- autoexec 3y ago
  I'm still waiting for FMV games to come back into fashion. They were a neat blend of theater and adventure games (which is another genre that doesn't get enough love)
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  Apples to oranges. Doom is a different genre. Some genres, like Worms, just peak much sooner than others, like Doom, and don't benefit from newer graphics or technological improvements. Just like UX design, at some point you peak, and any more changes you try to add for the sake of improvements, just end up making the product worse. Look at current commercial operating systems or at Reddit. They also made a 3D Worms game a while back and it was a massive flop. Often, simpler is better. Sure, everything can always be improved an you might hypothetically be able to build an even better Worms game than the original, but since the bar is already so high, you have very little chance of topping it and all the risks of failure.
- samatman 3y ago
  > Everything can be improved upon Arguable. I've seen variations of Tetris, but never improvements. Nor do I think you can improve stud poker, or Go.
  - toast0 3y ago
    Some of the early versions of Tetris only let you rotate one direction. Adding counter rotation is a clear improvement. I like the multiplayer versions over the years. The Tetris Effect is pretty fun, although maybe not strictly an improvement. I'm a little on the fence about 7-bag, because it's a little too evenly distributed, but early Tetris had some gnarly distribution.
    - Eric_WVGG 3y ago
      Tetris Effect is Tetris polished to a freakin diamond.
      - toast0 3y ago
        I enjoy it a lot, but some of the people I've shared it with find the atmosphericness distracting and prefer a Tetris that's only business.
    - autoexec 3y ago
      I had an old job once where the team all played Tetrinet and it was fun, but it did feel very different from normal Tetris.
  - Razengan 3y ago
    You can still improve the UI and UX around the gameplay. See the various online Go or Chess servers for example.
- nottorp 3y ago
  Doom, like Lemmings and Worms, was the first of its kind and you won't be able to recreate the experience just by redoing the graphics. Not to mention that when people say "improved" they usually mean "adding more stuff". More isn't necessarily better.
caf 3y ago
Worms was already a remake of Scorched Earth, wasn't it?
- GauntletWizard 3y ago
  Worms is in the same genre as Scorched Earth and owes it a lot for inspiration, but it adds a ton of distinct weapons and movement technique that certainly qualifies it as it's own game.
  - chongli 3y ago
    Yeah! This genre is called "artillery games" [1] and it has an impressive number of titles going all the way back to 1972! Scorched Earth is at least the 16th game in the genre, albeit the most famous pre-Worms. My favourite iteration growing up was called Dome Wars [3] and it's not even on that Wikipedia list! [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artillery_game https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artillery_game [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_artillery_video_games https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_artillery_video_games [3] https://macintoshgarden.org/games/dome-wars https://macintoshgarden.org/games/dome-wars
    - viraptor 3y ago
      Til from the list that the game was officially called "Gorillas", not "Gorilla" (as in gorilla.bas)
Razengan 3y ago
Wow, then in that case we should stop making any FPS games because we already have Doom, no more RPGs because Ultima exists, and no more movies because there's Bambi.
- nottorp 3y ago
  Haven't they stopped making FPS games? Multiplayer first dudebro "properties" don't count. Serious Sam seems to survive. They tried to continue Doom but it wasn't Doom so much. What else is there?
  - egypturnash 3y ago
    “boomer shooter” is the genre tag you want to look for. https://store.steampowered.com/tags/en/Boomer%20Shooter/ https://store.steampowered.com/tags/en/Boomer%20Shooter/
    - nottorp 3y ago
      Oh, I didn't necessarily mean retro. Just not a multiplayer focused IAP fest. A decent single player shooter with a story, atmosphere etc. I believe Far Cry may still qualify but I don't get games that require an account with the vendor (UPlay, Rockstar Social Club and other crap like that).
muzani 3y ago
I mean Android is sadly lacking of any of these kinds of games. There were great Worms clones back in the day as well, now there are afaik, none. It reminds me of rock as a genre. As a teenager, rock stars were everywhere, but there's barely any new rock bands after 2010. It doesn't mean the genre has achieved perfection, but everyone who would be doing rock is now doing something else. There was a resurgence in Interactive Fiction about 10 years ago, which evolved into AIF (thanks internet), which then disappeared in just 1-2 years, to be replaced by all these Ren'Py games. There's a huge gap and demand for Guitar Hero type of games, but nobody wants to make them. (Maybe related to the decline of rock, as there's still beat games)
- jamiek88 3y ago
  AIF?
  - muzani 3y ago
    Adult IF. There's some incredibly detailed mechanics, but I'll spare the details. And once people couldn't make the mechanics better, they had to focus on plot, puzzles, or images (though puzzles went against the spirit of IF). It got to a point where there were large communities like the roguelikes, awards, and suddenly it collapsed after things got too ambitious or I guess after everyone has seen everything in the genre. I think there might be a resurgence now or later with Twine and Patreon though.
    - jamiek88 3y ago
      Interesting! Thanks!

selcuka 3y ago

> If the originals are so good and can be played today on modern systems, what more could you bring to the table with modern versions to guarantee a big success. That's a weird deduction. Everything can be improved upon. Why do we have loads of modern games like Doom, for example? It was good too, and can be played today on modern systems.

autoexec 3y ago
I'm still waiting for FMV games to come back into fashion. They were a neat blend of theater and adventure games (which is another genre that doesn't get enough love)
FirmwareBurner 3y ago
Apples to oranges. Doom is a different genre. Some genres, like Worms, just peak much sooner than others, like Doom, and don't benefit from newer graphics or technological improvements. Just like UX design, at some point you peak, and any more changes you try to add for the sake of improvements, just end up making the product worse. Look at current commercial operating systems or at Reddit. They also made a 3D Worms game a while back and it was a massive flop. Often, simpler is better. Sure, everything can always be improved an you might hypothetically be able to build an even better Worms game than the original, but since the bar is already so high, you have very little chance of topping it and all the risks of failure.
samatman 3y ago
> Everything can be improved upon Arguable. I've seen variations of Tetris, but never improvements. Nor do I think you can improve stud poker, or Go.
- toast0 3y ago
  Some of the early versions of Tetris only let you rotate one direction. Adding counter rotation is a clear improvement. I like the multiplayer versions over the years. The Tetris Effect is pretty fun, although maybe not strictly an improvement. I'm a little on the fence about 7-bag, because it's a little too evenly distributed, but early Tetris had some gnarly distribution.
  - Eric_WVGG 3y ago
    Tetris Effect is Tetris polished to a freakin diamond.
    - toast0 3y ago
      I enjoy it a lot, but some of the people I've shared it with find the atmosphericness distracting and prefer a Tetris that's only business.
  - autoexec 3y ago
    I had an old job once where the team all played Tetrinet and it was fun, but it did feel very different from normal Tetris.
- Razengan 3y ago
  You can still improve the UI and UX around the gameplay. See the various online Go or Chess servers for example.
nottorp 3y ago
Doom, like Lemmings and Worms, was the first of its kind and you won't be able to recreate the experience just by redoing the graphics. Not to mention that when people say "improved" they usually mean "adding more stuff". More isn't necessarily better.

caf 3y ago

Worms was already a remake of Scorched Earth, wasn't it?

GauntletWizard 3y ago
Worms is in the same genre as Scorched Earth and owes it a lot for inspiration, but it adds a ton of distinct weapons and movement technique that certainly qualifies it as it's own game.
- chongli 3y ago
  Yeah! This genre is called "artillery games" [1] and it has an impressive number of titles going all the way back to 1972! Scorched Earth is at least the 16th game in the genre, albeit the most famous pre-Worms. My favourite iteration growing up was called Dome Wars [3] and it's not even on that Wikipedia list! [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artillery_game https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artillery_game [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_artillery_video_games https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_artillery_video_games [3] https://macintoshgarden.org/games/dome-wars https://macintoshgarden.org/games/dome-wars
  - viraptor 3y ago
    Til from the list that the game was officially called "Gorillas", not "Gorilla" (as in gorilla.bas)

Razengan 3y ago

Wow, then in that case we should stop making any FPS games because we already have Doom, no more RPGs because Ultima exists, and no more movies because there's Bambi.

nottorp 3y ago
Haven't they stopped making FPS games? Multiplayer first dudebro "properties" don't count. Serious Sam seems to survive. They tried to continue Doom but it wasn't Doom so much. What else is there?
- egypturnash 3y ago
  “boomer shooter” is the genre tag you want to look for. https://store.steampowered.com/tags/en/Boomer%20Shooter/ https://store.steampowered.com/tags/en/Boomer%20Shooter/
  - nottorp 3y ago
    Oh, I didn't necessarily mean retro. Just not a multiplayer focused IAP fest. A decent single player shooter with a story, atmosphere etc. I believe Far Cry may still qualify but I don't get games that require an account with the vendor (UPlay, Rockstar Social Club and other crap like that).

muzani 3y ago

I mean Android is sadly lacking of any of these kinds of games. There were great Worms clones back in the day as well, now there are afaik, none. It reminds me of rock as a genre. As a teenager, rock stars were everywhere, but there's barely any new rock bands after 2010. It doesn't mean the genre has achieved perfection, but everyone who would be doing rock is now doing something else. There was a resurgence in Interactive Fiction about 10 years ago, which evolved into AIF (thanks internet), which then disappeared in just 1-2 years, to be replaced by all these Ren'Py games. There's a huge gap and demand for Guitar Hero type of games, but nobody wants to make them. (Maybe related to the decline of rock, as there's still beat games)

jamiek88 3y ago
AIF?
- muzani 3y ago
  Adult IF. There's some incredibly detailed mechanics, but I'll spare the details. And once people couldn't make the mechanics better, they had to focus on plot, puzzles, or images (though puzzles went against the spirit of IF). It got to a point where there were large communities like the roguelikes, awards, and suddenly it collapsed after things got too ambitious or I guess after everyone has seen everything in the genre. I think there might be a resurgence now or later with Twine and Patreon though.
  - jamiek88 3y ago
    Interesting! Thanks!