5 ms·

It really doesn't make sense. By that logic, I shouldn't be allowed to load web pages because it's impossible to secure a browser. PWA's only need a few extra i

It really doesn't make sense. By that logic, I shouldn't be allowed to load web pages because it's impossible to secure a browser. PWA's only need a few extra integration privileges like badge- and window control, rest is just a web as usual. What you link is a case of one app (edge) reading the data of another app (chrome), which is entirely unrelated to PWAs.

emgeee 3y ago
In my experience even "a few extras privileges" can take many months to implement, especially for a company as large as Apple.
- layer8 3y ago
  The EU gave them six months after being designated as a gatekeeper. The regulation already entered into force an additional ten months earlier, so Apple arguably could have already prepared for their likely designation. The real issue, however, is that Apple is not saying “we need more time to implement the APIs”, which the EU would very likely concede, but “we don’t think it’s worth it for us”.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - chrisandchris 3y ago
    Is that teally an issue? From a legal perspective (as a layman) Apples decision seems fine for me. So how can we say "bad Apple" if they're legally doing it correct? That does not mean that their decision is the proper one, just that it's legally ok.
    - layer8 3y ago
      Why are you limiting this to the legal perspective? They are not doing what is in the interest of their users (and the spirit of the DMA), for petty reasons. As a user, that’s obviously bad.
wokwokwok 3y ago
> By that logic, I shouldn't be allowed to load web pages because it's impossible to secure a browser. Indeeed, and 'whatever browser engine you picked here' is responsible for correctly implementing these additional security features. That's the argument; if you write an app that lets you run other apps inside it how do we make sure your app does security correctly? When you look at it from that perspective, you can see that unless at an OS level you provide additional 'meta-security' features that allow apps that run in other apps to have fine grains access control that is managed by the OS, it's pretty much "security? Well, whatever...". Right? I mean, whether you agree or not, it's a pretty reasonable position to take and it entirely makes sense.
- derefr 3y ago
  > you can see that unless at an OS level you provide additional 'meta-security' features that allow apps that run in other apps to have fine grains access control that is managed by the OS, it's pretty much "security? Well, whatever...". I don't think that's the only solution. A simple alternative is to declare that "apps that run in other apps don't get to do anything at all." I.e. in this case, in response to a EU requirement to support alternative browser engines, Apple could — rather than disabling PWA integration altogether — drop all additional privileges that PWAs have that regular webpages don't. Make installed PWAs in the EU market into just "webpages, but with a home-screen icon, a separate task-manager card, and no address bar." Which is 99% of the reason anyone installs a PWA anyway. No camera/microphone, no extra storage, etc. Not for Chrome PWAs, not for Safari PWAs; not for any PWAs (on these devices.) They're just webpages presented differently. No "meta-security" required!
  - giantrobot 3y ago
    Then everyone will just bitch PWAs can't do anything.
    - Izkata 3y ago
      The Peapod grocery delivery app was already just single webview to their website. Worked fine.
ants_everywhere 3y ago
> What you link is a case of one app (edge) reading the data of another app (chrome), which is entirely unrelated to PWAs. In one sense, sure. But in another sense Edge taking Chrome's tabs means Microsoft is getting insight into Google's data. A lot of Apple's defenses seem really targeted at reducing the ability of Microsoft, Google, and Meta to extract value from Apple's users. Apple sees the union of all the app data, but their competitors can't put together that picture. So in that sense, Edge eating Chrome data may be the sort of thing they're looking to prevent.
- sagarm 3y ago
  After all, Apple users are the product. They even pay for the privilege!
  - xwolfi 3y ago
    They are a cash flow generating financial product, like a bond ETF. Apple packages users, resell them to the highest bidder, and interest is collected as return on investment from the payments users make. Ofc, like a bond, a user pays for a reason: he gets something out of the facility provided by Apple, in kind.
  - sunshinerag 3y ago
    Apple users are not products. That would be Google/chrome/android users

emgeee 3y ago

In my experience even "a few extras privileges" can take many months to implement, especially for a company as large as Apple.

layer8 3y ago
The EU gave them six months after being designated as a gatekeeper. The regulation already entered into force an additional ten months earlier, so Apple arguably could have already prepared for their likely designation. The real issue, however, is that Apple is not saying “we need more time to implement the APIs”, which the EU would very likely concede, but “we don’t think it’s worth it for us”.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- chrisandchris 3y ago
  Is that teally an issue? From a legal perspective (as a layman) Apples decision seems fine for me. So how can we say "bad Apple" if they're legally doing it correct? That does not mean that their decision is the proper one, just that it's legally ok.
  - layer8 3y ago
    Why are you limiting this to the legal perspective? They are not doing what is in the interest of their users (and the spirit of the DMA), for petty reasons. As a user, that’s obviously bad.

wokwokwok 3y ago

> By that logic, I shouldn't be allowed to load web pages because it's impossible to secure a browser. Indeeed, and 'whatever browser engine you picked here' is responsible for correctly implementing these additional security features. That's the argument; if you write an app that lets you run other apps inside it how do we make sure your app does security correctly? When you look at it from that perspective, you can see that unless at an OS level you provide additional 'meta-security' features that allow apps that run in other apps to have fine grains access control that is managed by the OS, it's pretty much "security? Well, whatever...". Right? I mean, whether you agree or not, it's a pretty reasonable position to take and it entirely makes sense.

derefr 3y ago
> you can see that unless at an OS level you provide additional 'meta-security' features that allow apps that run in other apps to have fine grains access control that is managed by the OS, it's pretty much "security? Well, whatever...". I don't think that's the only solution. A simple alternative is to declare that "apps that run in other apps don't get to do anything at all." I.e. in this case, in response to a EU requirement to support alternative browser engines, Apple could — rather than disabling PWA integration altogether — drop all additional privileges that PWAs have that regular webpages don't. Make installed PWAs in the EU market into just "webpages, but with a home-screen icon, a separate task-manager card, and no address bar." Which is 99% of the reason anyone installs a PWA anyway. No camera/microphone, no extra storage, etc. Not for Chrome PWAs, not for Safari PWAs; not for any PWAs (on these devices.) They're just webpages presented differently. No "meta-security" required!
- giantrobot 3y ago
  Then everyone will just bitch PWAs can't do anything.
  - Izkata 3y ago
    The Peapod grocery delivery app was already just single webview to their website. Worked fine.

ants_everywhere 3y ago

> What you link is a case of one app (edge) reading the data of another app (chrome), which is entirely unrelated to PWAs. In one sense, sure. But in another sense Edge taking Chrome's tabs means Microsoft is getting insight into Google's data. A lot of Apple's defenses seem really targeted at reducing the ability of Microsoft, Google, and Meta to extract value from Apple's users. Apple sees the union of all the app data, but their competitors can't put together that picture. So in that sense, Edge eating Chrome data may be the sort of thing they're looking to prevent.

sagarm 3y ago
After all, Apple users are the product. They even pay for the privilege!
- xwolfi 3y ago
  They are a cash flow generating financial product, like a bond ETF. Apple packages users, resell them to the highest bidder, and interest is collected as return on investment from the payments users make. Ofc, like a bond, a user pays for a reason: he gets something out of the facility provided by Apple, in kind.
- sunshinerag 3y ago
  Apple users are not products. That would be Google/chrome/android users