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There's no way solar can grow geometrically for long. It consumes real estate like there's no tomorrow. Land is limited; sunlight is limited. It has a hard, har

There's no way solar can grow geometrically for long. It consumes real estate like there's no tomorrow. Land is limited; sunlight is limited. It has a hard, hard limit. Unlike many other kinds of power generation, which are land-frugal and work 24 hours a day. So, let's rethink who doesn't understand growth.

pfdietz 3y ago
> It consumes real estate like there's no tomorrow. Now you're really showing you haven't bothered to do basic arithmetic. Land use is not any sort of real limit to PV solar, especially in the US. I suggest you check your assertions for validity before you commit them to writing.
- JoeAltmaier 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - pfdietz 3y ago
    I suggest you provide actual evidence for your assertion. You will not be able to, because it is false. The land area in the US is enormous and land cost is only a small fraction of the cost of a PV field. And, of course, grids can be extended as needed. The trolling is entirely yours.
    - JoeAltmaier 3y ago
      Again with the hand-waving. "Land is big!" is no kind of argument or evidence. It all comes down to cost and practicality. Energy is not some game, its business. And with dropping panel cost, land is the last remaining hard nut in the equation. Not a small fraction, a large one, and becoming larger. As for understanding math, the earth is not getting any bigger. That limit cannot be beat, no matter how breathless the rhetoric.
      - pfdietz 3y ago
        > Again with the hand-waving. You are engaging in a stereotypical crank behavior here. Make a ludicrous claim without evidence, then demand detailed argument when someone calls you on it. No, it is YOUR responsibility to argue your initial claim. Only when you have given that detailed argument can you require a detailed argument in rebuttal. I remind you of Hitchen's Razor: "what is claimed without evidence can be dismissed without evidence."
      - defrost 3y ago
        It would take 526 solar farms the size of the Solar Star solar farm to power the approx 131 million households in the USofA. https://8billiontrees.com/solar-panels/largest-solar-farm https://8billiontrees.com/solar-panels/largest-solar-farm That's 526 x 13 km^2 of area (plus grid connection) or 6,838 km^2. Or one large square of 83 x 83 km. Or less than a third the size of Anna Creek Cattle Station in Australia. See map: https://australianscaffolds.com.au/australias-largest-cattle-station https://australianscaffolds.com.au/australias-largest-cattle... For comparison, recall that the land area of Australia is more or less the same as the land area of mainland contiguous USofA.
        JoeAltmaier 3y ago
        Very encouraging! Now, to find that level unobstructed ground-level stable dry cheap tracts near grids, with access for maintenance. Near where folks need the electricity. And the land isn't ecologically significant. And remember, storage or it's not helping for shit. There are so many obstacles left! So many reasons it will slow down once the enthusiasm and price supports have dried up. Like everything else we've ever done.
        defrost 3y ago
        I would have thought the US had several people capable of purchasing an area only a third of an Australian cattle station to corner the future market for solar energy production and build out HVDC delivery lines .. but I forgot it's been all downhill since the space program. The money is same scale as oil & gas investments so it's not exactly something that isn't being done already - the layout can one big area, many smaller areas, the panels can be raised in the air to allow for crops | animals underneath, etc. Roadsides would be good, poor quality agricultural land, lake beds that are drying up in the midwest and circa Utah, etc. But yeah, you're right - too hard for the USofA that used to be great. /<sad> Meanwhile, we're doing that here already - scaling up to power billion tonne per annum mining operations to deliver resource to the rest of the world .. where do you think China gets it's iron, lithium, mineral sands, etc. from?
abart13 3y ago
Looking it up solar/renewables take up surprisingly less space than expected Area required for all renewables: https://landartgenerator.org/blagi/archives/77565 https://landartgenerator.org/blagi/archives/77565 Area required for just solar: https://landartgenerator.org/blagi/archives/127 https://landartgenerator.org/blagi/archives/127
adrianN 3y ago
Luckily we'll have more than enough energy long, long before we run out of land or sunlight. We could satisfy a large part of our energy demand just by replacing energy crops by solar panels, with the added benefit of not needing fertilizer and pesticides.
throwaway5959 3y ago
California has a lot of desert. A lot a lot.
- JoeAltmaier 3y ago
  The single most fragile ecosystem in the world is a desert. The casual way folks here throw that line out, again and again - shows a profound lack of understanding about what an ecosystem is.
thinkcontext 3y ago
If you are concerned about solar's use of land then you must be positively apoplectic about using corn for ethanol. That uses more than 40% of US corn production, an amount of acreage so vast it's difficult to comprehend.
- pfdietz 3y ago
  Using PV with BEVs instead of ethanol in ICEs would be something like 200x more land efficient.
- toomuchtodo 3y ago
  ~40 million acres. https://pv-magazine-usa.com/2022/03/10/solarfood-in-ethanol-fields-could-fully-power-the-united-states/ https://pv-magazine-usa.com/2022/03/10/solarfood-in-ethanol-...

pfdietz 3y ago

> It consumes real estate like there's no tomorrow. Now you're really showing you haven't bothered to do basic arithmetic. Land use is not any sort of real limit to PV solar, especially in the US. I suggest you check your assertions for validity before you commit them to writing.

JoeAltmaier 3y ago
[flagged]
- pfdietz 3y ago
  I suggest you provide actual evidence for your assertion. You will not be able to, because it is false. The land area in the US is enormous and land cost is only a small fraction of the cost of a PV field. And, of course, grids can be extended as needed. The trolling is entirely yours.
  - JoeAltmaier 3y ago
    Again with the hand-waving. "Land is big!" is no kind of argument or evidence. It all comes down to cost and practicality. Energy is not some game, its business. And with dropping panel cost, land is the last remaining hard nut in the equation. Not a small fraction, a large one, and becoming larger. As for understanding math, the earth is not getting any bigger. That limit cannot be beat, no matter how breathless the rhetoric.
    - pfdietz 3y ago
      > Again with the hand-waving. You are engaging in a stereotypical crank behavior here. Make a ludicrous claim without evidence, then demand detailed argument when someone calls you on it. No, it is YOUR responsibility to argue your initial claim. Only when you have given that detailed argument can you require a detailed argument in rebuttal. I remind you of Hitchen's Razor: "what is claimed without evidence can be dismissed without evidence."
    - defrost 3y ago
      It would take 526 solar farms the size of the Solar Star solar farm to power the approx 131 million households in the USofA. https://8billiontrees.com/solar-panels/largest-solar-farm https://8billiontrees.com/solar-panels/largest-solar-farm That's 526 x 13 km^2 of area (plus grid connection) or 6,838 km^2. Or one large square of 83 x 83 km. Or less than a third the size of Anna Creek Cattle Station in Australia. See map: https://australianscaffolds.com.au/australias-largest-cattle-station https://australianscaffolds.com.au/australias-largest-cattle... For comparison, recall that the land area of Australia is more or less the same as the land area of mainland contiguous USofA.
      - JoeAltmaier 3y ago
        Very encouraging! Now, to find that level unobstructed ground-level stable dry cheap tracts near grids, with access for maintenance. Near where folks need the electricity. And the land isn't ecologically significant. And remember, storage or it's not helping for shit. There are so many obstacles left! So many reasons it will slow down once the enthusiasm and price supports have dried up. Like everything else we've ever done.
        defrost 3y ago
        I would have thought the US had several people capable of purchasing an area only a third of an Australian cattle station to corner the future market for solar energy production and build out HVDC delivery lines .. but I forgot it's been all downhill since the space program. The money is same scale as oil & gas investments so it's not exactly something that isn't being done already - the layout can one big area, many smaller areas, the panels can be raised in the air to allow for crops | animals underneath, etc. Roadsides would be good, poor quality agricultural land, lake beds that are drying up in the midwest and circa Utah, etc. But yeah, you're right - too hard for the USofA that used to be great. /<sad> Meanwhile, we're doing that here already - scaling up to power billion tonne per annum mining operations to deliver resource to the rest of the world .. where do you think China gets it's iron, lithium, mineral sands, etc. from?

abart13 3y ago

Looking it up solar/renewables take up surprisingly less space than expected Area required for all renewables: https://landartgenerator.org/blagi/archives/77565 https://landartgenerator.org/blagi/archives/77565 Area required for just solar: https://landartgenerator.org/blagi/archives/127 https://landartgenerator.org/blagi/archives/127

adrianN 3y ago

Luckily we'll have more than enough energy long, long before we run out of land or sunlight. We could satisfy a large part of our energy demand just by replacing energy crops by solar panels, with the added benefit of not needing fertilizer and pesticides.

throwaway5959 3y ago

California has a lot of desert. A lot a lot.

JoeAltmaier 3y ago
The single most fragile ecosystem in the world is a desert. The casual way folks here throw that line out, again and again - shows a profound lack of understanding about what an ecosystem is.

thinkcontext 3y ago

If you are concerned about solar's use of land then you must be positively apoplectic about using corn for ethanol. That uses more than 40% of US corn production, an amount of acreage so vast it's difficult to comprehend.

pfdietz 3y ago
Using PV with BEVs instead of ethanol in ICEs would be something like 200x more land efficient.
toomuchtodo 3y ago
~40 million acres. https://pv-magazine-usa.com/2022/03/10/solarfood-in-ethanol-fields-could-fully-power-the-united-states/ https://pv-magazine-usa.com/2022/03/10/solarfood-in-ethanol-...