3 ms·

The tone of the community is really different, too—and imo the worst thing about the transition from Linux -> OS X. And ok, it's not a fair comparison, because

The tone of the community is really different, too—and imo the worst thing about the transition from Linux -> OS X. And ok, it's not a fair comparison, because Linux users tend to be way more technical due in part to the OS family's barriers of entry. Still, it's annoying when you search for how to do something in OS X and the first few threads are full of people saying "that isn't how it works! Instead of wanting to change it, you need to understand and follow the Apple Way™!" You're usually able to find the solution after a bit more searching, but the Apple Forums are especially bad.

wtallis 3y ago
If your mental model for how the software works is not an accurate abstraction for how it actually functions, you're going to be frustrated. If, when confronted with evidence that your mental model is inaccurate, you refuse to update your mental model, you will have difficulty coming up with solutions for the things that bug you, and difficulty even asking the right questions. Being mad at software for operating in a different paradigm than you are used to is not productive. This all applies just as much to users coming to macOS from Windows (or imitations thereof) to macOS as it does to users coming to git from svn.
- tech_ken 3y ago
  Okay yes but git and an OS are very different pieces of software. One does one thing (version control), and to be effective at that single task its highly opinionated. This is fine and good; he restriction allows the tool to laser focus on being good at a few things. OTOH an OS needs to do many very different things, as many different things as there are users. Creating a single paradigm, and obstructing basic configuration stuff like mouse input settings, is the opposite of what you want in this case. An OS should be flexible customizable, to allow the user to fine-tune it to match their use case needs as closely as possible. Just telling an OS user "get with the program" kind of misses the point, IMO. I prefer OSs which meet my needs, rather than the other way around.
  - wtallis 3y ago
    You may wish to note that I'm explicitly not telling the OS user to just "get with the program". I'm telling the OS user that they need to understand the OS before they can effectively modify it to suit their needs.
    - tech_ken 3y ago
      > Still, it's annoying when you search for how to do something in OS X and the first few threads are full of people saying "that isn't how it works! Instead of wanting to change it, you need to understand and follow the Apple Way™!" > Being mad at software for operating in a different paradigm than you are used to is not productive. This all applies just as much to users coming to macOS from Windows (or imitations thereof) to macOS as it does to users coming to git from svn. I guess I can see how you intended your comment to mean what you're saying, but reading these two comments in sequence I think one can understand my confusion. You may wish to directly say what you mean, rather than speak in glib generalities.
      - wtallis 3y ago
        I don't think I'm the one being glib here. I'm trying to both illustrate that there's a problem that truly is general and not specific to macOS, and trying to make the fine distinction between telling users to understand and suck it up vs telling users to understand so that they can better figure out how to get what they want. That latter distinction is what you seem to be having more trouble with.
        tech_ken 3y ago
        Okay good talk
- michaelcampbell 3y ago
  I'm reminded of a saying... The reasonable man expects to change to fit in the world. The unreasonable man expects the world to change around him. Thus, all progress is made by unreasonable men. (Paraphrased) > Being mad at software for operating in a different paradigm than you are used to is not productive. Indeed, it is often the ONLY thing that causes progress.
  - wtallis 3y ago
    The "unreasonable men" who come up with better solutions are usually the people who have the deepest understanding of what is wrong with the status quo. I don't think the people who refuse to understand the problem are usually coming up with good solutions.
    - michaelcampbell 3y ago
      Understanding is a totally orthogonal concern. Just because someone doesn't like "The Apple Way(tm)" doesn't mean they don't understand it. Believing so just gives the "Apple's a cult" type people more ammo. What most people on this thread are asking for is to be given the ability to mold/configure things that most other non-Apple apps provide. It's a well known trope to have the Apple culture say "You are wrong, do it this other way instead" rather than "here's how you get what you want".
curt15 3y ago
I still remember the apologists (circa 2011) trying to justify OS X's system-wide autosave feature when it came out despite its obvious pitfall -- users could make inadvertent edits to their documents without noticing. When users pointed out that Apple's own XCode didn't adopt that feature, the apologists' excuse was simply "IDEs are different".
- ace2358 3y ago
  What? Autosave also has versioning. You can always go back through the auto save history. You can also revert to the original opened file. This is done from the file menu. Also, if like a good mac user you have Time Machine configured and on, you can browse your versions further into the past. Heavy iWork user, I don’t know about Xcode though.
  - curt15 3y ago
    Does the version browser show a line-by-line diff? When I last used it ~10 yrs ago it displayed a fancy Time Machine-like interface that was useless for telling if I accidentally inserted a character in page 11.

wtallis 3y ago

If your mental model for how the software works is not an accurate abstraction for how it actually functions, you're going to be frustrated. If, when confronted with evidence that your mental model is inaccurate, you refuse to update your mental model, you will have difficulty coming up with solutions for the things that bug you, and difficulty even asking the right questions. Being mad at software for operating in a different paradigm than you are used to is not productive. This all applies just as much to users coming to macOS from Windows (or imitations thereof) to macOS as it does to users coming to git from svn.

tech_ken 3y ago
Okay yes but git and an OS are very different pieces of software. One does one thing (version control), and to be effective at that single task its highly opinionated. This is fine and good; he restriction allows the tool to laser focus on being good at a few things. OTOH an OS needs to do many very different things, as many different things as there are users. Creating a single paradigm, and obstructing basic configuration stuff like mouse input settings, is the opposite of what you want in this case. An OS should be flexible customizable, to allow the user to fine-tune it to match their use case needs as closely as possible. Just telling an OS user "get with the program" kind of misses the point, IMO. I prefer OSs which meet my needs, rather than the other way around.
- wtallis 3y ago
  You may wish to note that I'm explicitly not telling the OS user to just "get with the program". I'm telling the OS user that they need to understand the OS before they can effectively modify it to suit their needs.
  - tech_ken 3y ago
    > Still, it's annoying when you search for how to do something in OS X and the first few threads are full of people saying "that isn't how it works! Instead of wanting to change it, you need to understand and follow the Apple Way™!" > Being mad at software for operating in a different paradigm than you are used to is not productive. This all applies just as much to users coming to macOS from Windows (or imitations thereof) to macOS as it does to users coming to git from svn. I guess I can see how you intended your comment to mean what you're saying, but reading these two comments in sequence I think one can understand my confusion. You may wish to directly say what you mean, rather than speak in glib generalities.
    - wtallis 3y ago
      I don't think I'm the one being glib here. I'm trying to both illustrate that there's a problem that truly is general and not specific to macOS, and trying to make the fine distinction between telling users to understand and suck it up vs telling users to understand so that they can better figure out how to get what they want. That latter distinction is what you seem to be having more trouble with.
      - tech_ken 3y ago
        Okay good talk
michaelcampbell 3y ago
I'm reminded of a saying... The reasonable man expects to change to fit in the world. The unreasonable man expects the world to change around him. Thus, all progress is made by unreasonable men. (Paraphrased) > Being mad at software for operating in a different paradigm than you are used to is not productive. Indeed, it is often the ONLY thing that causes progress.
- wtallis 3y ago
  The "unreasonable men" who come up with better solutions are usually the people who have the deepest understanding of what is wrong with the status quo. I don't think the people who refuse to understand the problem are usually coming up with good solutions.
  - michaelcampbell 3y ago
    Understanding is a totally orthogonal concern. Just because someone doesn't like "The Apple Way(tm)" doesn't mean they don't understand it. Believing so just gives the "Apple's a cult" type people more ammo. What most people on this thread are asking for is to be given the ability to mold/configure things that most other non-Apple apps provide. It's a well known trope to have the Apple culture say "You are wrong, do it this other way instead" rather than "here's how you get what you want".

curt15 3y ago

I still remember the apologists (circa 2011) trying to justify OS X's system-wide autosave feature when it came out despite its obvious pitfall -- users could make inadvertent edits to their documents without noticing. When users pointed out that Apple's own XCode didn't adopt that feature, the apologists' excuse was simply "IDEs are different".

ace2358 3y ago
What? Autosave also has versioning. You can always go back through the auto save history. You can also revert to the original opened file. This is done from the file menu. Also, if like a good mac user you have Time Machine configured and on, you can browse your versions further into the past. Heavy iWork user, I don’t know about Xcode though.
- curt15 3y ago
  Does the version browser show a line-by-line diff? When I last used it ~10 yrs ago it displayed a fancy Time Machine-like interface that was useless for telling if I accidentally inserted a character in page 11.