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Apple confirms iOS 17.4 removes Home Screen web apps in the EU
- Ezhik 3y ago>Addressing the complex security and privacy concerns associated with web apps using alternative browser engines would require building an entirely new integration architecture that does not currently exist in iOS and was not practical to undertake given the other demands of the DMA and the very low user adoption of Home Screen web apps. This makes me worried Apple will remove PWA support altogether.
- mmcnl 3y agoThis basically kills progressive web apps. The premise of PWA is that it can run on any device. If PWAs can't run on EU iPhones, quite a big market, then it makes zero sense for developers to invest in building PWAs. So unfortunate.
- Dalewyn 3y ago>it makes zero sense for developers to invest in building PWAs I can't see this as anything but a solid win for end users. I am fucking tired of non-native, JavaShit-laden "web apps" that each demand a dozen web browser processes and run like drunken dogs on a Friday night.
- idle_zealot 3y agoThis does nothing to address that issue. Developers will still make their cross-platform apps with web tech, but now they also have to ship a native wrapper to get onto the homescreen.
- mmcnl 3y agoI prefer open standards over walled gardens of mega corporations.
- gjsman-1000 3y agoTo be honest, outside of Hacker News and other "nerd" circles, I have never heard anyone talk about PWAs. Outside our circles, I would not be shocked if literally nobody cares about them. Basically dead on arrival. The only place I've really seen them talked about is the Microsoft Store, where they can be sold as apps. They also all have 2 stars or less with people screeching "PWA - not an app!"
- mmcnl 3y agoYes, but that's because PWAs are poorly supported across platforms. This is a serious blow to the adoption and future of PWAs as a whole.
- gjsman-1000 3y agoI also don't buy that it's even a big tech conspiracy. Firefox (desktop) couldn't, and still can't, be bothered to care about PWA support. It's a dead tech. A neat idea, but dead. I think this is because, for most people - why would they care? Maybe if they have a cheap device that has low storage space. The people who cared most about PWA are developers who don't want to build apps or pay fees - but users don't give a darn about that.
- mmcnl 3y agoA lot of web technologies take years to achieve high adoption. The fact that it's not popular today says little about how popular it will be tomorrow.
- gjsman-1000 3y agoAnd vice versa... there's also those technologies that never catch on. VRML? XUL? PointCast? WebSQL? Gears?
- mmcnl 3y agoOf course. But PWA's biggest roadblock is poor platform support. So Apple actively going against PWAs is a major blow. And personally I'm a big fan of open standards and hate that I have to install an app through walled gardens for everything.
- lxgr 3y agoYeah, it effectively forces all but the largest mobile app developers to commit to native iOS apps. Apple is definitely happy about this. PWAs always seemed like a regulatory fig leaf more than something they really care about.
- snapcaster 3y agoHopefully! I hate PWAs, would be nice silver lining
- dangus 3y agoIt's as if developing an operating system with the assumption that it will only ever support one browsing engine forever was misguided in the first place.
- 6510 3y ago> very low user adoption I first had to add the add to homescreen button to the share menu with the "Edit Actions" option. If I search add to homescreen button missing I find nothing... or worse actually. They say to restart safari, restart the phone and then reinstall iOS. https://discussions.apple.com/thread/8345497?sortBy=best https://discussions.apple.com/thread/8345497?sortBy=best I've considered making a page on my website explaining how to do this but it smells to much like something the user is not suppose to do. It's asking a lot? Very suspicious? Am I getting hacked?
- monocularvision 3y agoPeople need to own the unintended side effects of their preferred regulation instead of constantly complaining about companies not embracing the “spirit” of said regulation.
- jcotton42 3y agoThis is 100% malicious compliance or spite from Apple. The DMA did not in any way require them to dump PWAs.
- mikestew 3y agoApple argues otherwise, and I find their argument to be reasonable. What are the specifics of your disagreement?
- MrStonedOne 3y ago[dead]
- szasamasa 3y agoa user can stay in safari if it trusts apple with web security a user can download spying native apps from the apple app store but I cannot decide to trust Google, Microsoft, Mozilla with their browser security sandbox?
- szasamasa 3y agoyou are an apple bot I see otherwise why do you specifically care what browser engine choice I make? Apple could disable web capabilities in safari and let other engines do otherwise you CAN and SHOULD stay in Safari if you trust only apple browsers to be safe? what do you care if I use chrome and got fucked? (which I wont) do you want to tell me that I should not use macos, linux, windows android and firefox or edge or chrome because I may get fucked? you do not really understand that it is MY choice how I get fucked with a lastpass native app clone on apple or with a real chrome browser nobody stops you to stay by your webkit engine!
- 3y ago
- rany_ 3y ago>Addressing the complex security and privacy concerns associated with web apps using alternative browser engines would require building an entirely new integration architecture that does not currently exist in iOS and was not practical to undertake given the other demands of the DMA and the very low user adoption of Home Screen web apps. If alternative browser engines and PWA is enough to pwn iOS, maybe it was never really secure in the first place.
- shuckles 3y agoWhy use this extremely indirect signal to evaluate security when the direct signals like exploit markets indicate iOS is among the most secure consumer computing environments ever?
- 0x457 3y agoDo you not know how JIT works?
- SkiFire13 3y agoHow is JIT relevant here? We're talking about removing homescreen shortcuts to PWAs. This doesn't limit JIT in any way.
- 0x457 3y agoHome screen shortcuts have larger sandbox. JIT is a large attack surface because of how JIT works. When there is only browser - Apple can easily push an emergency patch. With 3rd party browsers this isn't possible.
- SkiFire13 3y ago> JIT is a large attack surface because of how JIT works. From the point of view of the OS, a 3rd party application using JIT can't do anything more than a 3rd party application not using JIT, which Apple have to allow anyway. And still it's laughable that the only "mitigation" Apple found was to remove a feature that most people didn't even know about (because Apple made it difficult to even access in the first place!). That surely will have an impact on the security of the 2 people that knew about that feature. By the way, why isn't MacOS so insecure if it allows all sorts of 3rd party apps, with or without JIT, and even allow apps creating shortcuts on the desktop themselves? > When there is only browser - Apple can easily push an emergency patch. With 3rd party browsers this isn't possible. Lot of people don't immediately apply OS updates, and Safari is part of the OS so it cannot be updated in other ways. 3rd party browsers instead can be very quickly updated like any normal apps without even requiring a reboot of the OS. It seems to me that a competent 3rd party app has a better security model than Safari.
- lxgr 3y agoWow. I have no words. This is quite something, even for Apple. > to comply with the DMA’s requirements, we had to remove the Home Screen web apps feature in the EU. [...] Still, we regret any impact this change [...] may have. Regrets all the way to the bank. I'm sure it has nothing to do with the Core Technology Fee whatsoever.
- gjsman-1000 3y agoTo be fair, not even Firefox (desktop) can be bothered to support PWA. PWA is, as an honest assessment, dead. It was a neat idea - kind of like BeOS or Amiga - but it's dead. My personal take is this is because PWA had too little to define itself to the everyday Joe with. The appeal of PWA was primarily to developers - because then they wouldn't need to build apps or pay fees. What appeals to developers though, doesn't have any intrinsic appeal to Joe.
- lxgr 3y agoThat may be so, but why did Apple start providing Safari/macOS support for PWAs less than half a year ago with the latest macOS launch then? They clearly care about it a little bit.
- intrasight 3y agoI wouldn’t say that they cared. I say that they begrudgingly were being dragged towards supporting PWA functionality, and now they have a strong case to stop being dragged in that direction.
- soundnote 3y agoI haven't used PWAs on mobile much, but use them a lot on desktop. They're very useful things.
- yungporko 3y agoperfect, i'm so glad that one feature i actually use is being taken away in exchange for two features i never even wanted.
- anton96 3y agoAs I'm looking at the vision pro and try to envision what I could with it, when I think of developing a new app for it, those kind of extreme hostilities come to my mind now. It just shows they don't care, they are releasing a whole new platform right now and at the same time show one of the most abusing attitude to developer I think we have rarely seen. Apple app store condition were already overreaching but this time they really went the extra length with every single of their DMA adaptations.
- emsy 3y agoYeah, see also the iPad such a powerful, well engineered device, held back by what I can do with it.
- chongli 3y agoIt just shows they don't care That's not at all the case. Apple does care, a lot. It's just that their interests are not perfectly aligned with yours (or most developers). The issue is that Apple needs 3rd party developers because a platform without apps has little value. However, there are so many developers on iOS that individuals have almost no leverage. Thus Apple invests their resources into the fattest part of the curve (developers of highly monetized games, mostly) because it gives them the best returns. It's not economical for them to focus on the elite developer's highly specific needs.
- breather 3y agoWhat are "web apps"? Is this just a bookmark to some site?
- HL33tibCe7 3y agoThe reasoning here from Apple seems reasonable to me to be honest - they’ve gone into a surprising level of technical detail, quite interesting. I suspect many in this thread are commenting without actually reading their argument.
- lxgr 3y agoThe reasoning can at the same time be technically correct ("we would have needed to allow Firefox and other browsers to provide homescreen PWAs as well in our read of the DMA, and that would have been somewhat annoying") and highly motivated by business interests ("oh, I guess you'll have to develop native apps now and pay us a CTF for them").
- threeseed 3y ago> and that would have been somewhat annoying Allowing PWA to access the camera/microphone without system prompts and install other apps on the device is a little more than just annoying.
- MrStonedOne 3y agothan disable that specific functionality until you can make the framework instead of throwing out the whole thing in a tempter tantrum?
- threeseed 3y agoOn iOS you can't disable functionality in that way. Objective-C allows dynamic dispatch to private API methods which would be just fine to do on third party app stores. As I mentioned above the issue is likely related to engines being able to cache the system prompts approvals across multiple PWAs effectively bypassing them.
- lxgr 3y agoThe third-party browser could just have its own prompt until Apple delivers their API, no? On macOS, I already have to both grant Firefox permission to access camera, and then Firefox asks me about every website trying to access it individually, using their own UI.
- drooopy 3y agoWell, this just forces my hand to buy an android device next year when my iPhone will no longer be supported by iOS.
- stephc_int13 3y agoApple is run by glorified accountants. Jobs and Ive are long gone. I would expect a bit more decency and awareness, but they probably suffer some kind of tunnel vision.
- JoshTriplett 3y agoOn the contrary, I don't think accountants would tell Apple to pick a fight with the EU; idealists would. They may not share your ideals, or mine, but doing "letter of the law" and "bare minimum malicious compliance" is absolutely something someone does because their principles would be offended by doing otherwise.
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago>I don't think accountants would tell Apple to pick a fight with the EU; They don't have any fight with the EU yet. Apple's accountants and lawyer are only engaging in malicious compliance with the EU so that they cause the most annoyance in the EU while still being legally in the green to not have a fight. It's precisely what accountants and lawyers would do.
- JoshTriplett 3y ago> They don't have any fight with the EU yet. They absolutely do. The EU took a step, then Apple took a step, and I fully expect the EU to take further steps in response, both in terms of further regulation and in malicious enforcement. (When engaging in malicious compliance, you'd better be sure you're following the letter of the law to the last detail, including anything a court may be willing to nitpick and might otherwise dismiss or discount for someone not engaged in malicious compliance.) Frankly, the biggest reason I'm annoyed with Apple for doing this is that it's likely to contribute to the existence of a future worse version of the DMA that overreaches in the course of precision.
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago>The EU took a step, then Apple took a step Apple didn't need to take any extra steps. They just had to comply, while keeping functionality as is, they didn't need to break it in the process. Apple's response is the corporate equivalent of that toddler who smashes things out of spite when things don't go his way. >and I fully expect the EU to take further steps in response, both in terms of further regulation and in malicious enforcement Bureaucratic politics respond way way slower than wealthy tech companies with 7 figure lawyers on payroll. It's a legal game of whack-a-mole and the likes of Apple are high-score players at this.
- realusername 3y agoBetween that and the "alternative stores", I guess they really, really want those fines.
- jonatanpedersen 3y agoTime to switch to Android
- tmaly 3y agoI am curious how they have approached this in the code structure. It sounds like it could be a challenge to maintain if multiple regulatory bodies across the globe start asking for their own little changes.
- miramba 3y agoCan someone please clarify? Deep down I hope that "home screen apps" means something else than the recently added support for PWAs... Does this mean PWAs will not work anymore on iOS?
- asow92 3y ago[flagged]
- lxgr 3y ago> Be careful what you wish for, because it might come true. I didn't wish for a corporation throwing a tantrum because good-faith compliance with a regional regulation is beneath it.
- asow92 3y ago[flagged]
- JoshTriplett 3y agoWhen you try to control something with regulation, don't ever expect good faith. Expect exactly what you legislate, no more. (And expect unintended consequences, as well.) If you want legislation to make something happen, the legislation needs to specify precisely what you want. If a company was interested in the "spirit" of the legislation, which is to say unwritten and underspecified rules above and beyond the legislation, they'd already be doing it without it having to be legislated.
- asow92 3y agoPrecisely, and Apple have implemented the law in good-faith by reducing service in their own product offering to make things equal, as the law requires them to do so. Ergo, be careful what you wish for, because it might come true.
- pmuw 3y agoThere is a bug in Safari's Intelligent Tracking Protection where sometimes when I visit one of my own websites, it will refuse to send an auth cookie. ITP forces this behavior if you have used Safari for seven consecutive days without visiting a website... but it seems to occasionally happen by mistake, which is very frustrating UX. This problem doesn't exist with home-screen web apps, which are now unavailable in the EU.
- rambambram 3y agoIt's just a f*cking link on the home screen. Opening in the browser of the user's choice. This doesn't only hurt PWA's, it also hurts very simple webapps that are nothing more than a responsive website with some functionality and data. Made easily accessible by a link (with title and favicon) on the homescreen. Of course, one can open a browser, wait, click again on some bookmark icon, scroll to the webapp, click it, wait again... and use it just like that. The world wide web is an evil place. Luckily Apple protects everybody with an iPhone. The year of the Linux desktop, Linux tablet, Linux phone, Linux smartwatch, Linux AR glasses could not come soon enough.
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago>Luckily Apple protects everybody with an iPhone. The year of the Linux desktop, Linux tablet, Linux phone, Linux smartwatch, Linux AR glasses could not come soon enough. No chance, look at HN, the top comments are defending Apple's stance. If even tech savvy geeks lap up Apple's propaganda, what hope is there for the average user?
- rambambram 3y agoExactly. Try to forget the average user for a while. The niche is smaller but still exists. I think it's possible. Think of a combination of Jobs's vision of a hub-and-spoke model of computing devices, powered by SBC's and Waveshare components and open source software. For a start. It won't be premium devices as people are now expecting of Apple devices, but there comes a point where people are willing to trade in nicer hardware for nicer software and functionality. I don't know who the early adopters are going to be of this, but I know a lot of comment sections on HN with people also fed up about the direction of big tech.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- DuskHorizon 3y ago[dead]
- ChrisArchitect 3y ago[dupe] More discussion yesterday: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39371119 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39371119
- spaceheater 3y agoThe only real reason to use PWA so far was access to Web Push Notifications on iOS, which likely to stop working altogether. If you fork $99 to apple, you may be able to use "Safari Push Notifications". Maybe one of their 600 new apis will allow Chrome to show notifications?