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> their stand against US law enforcement on things like encryption Are you referring to the San Bernadino shooter's iPhone? Because Apple's attempt to introdu

> their stand against US law enforcement on things like encryption Are you referring to the San Bernadino shooter's iPhone? Because Apple's attempt to introduce CSAM scanning is certainly not what I would call a stand against US law enforcement.

buildbot 3y ago
I imagine they are, as well as the e2e encryption added to icloud after they dropped the CSAM thing. My pet theory is basically a rouge VP started the on device scanning project with whatever external org they worked with, and basically blindsided the rest of the company. Tim Cook probably called the person and was like what the fuck. Or at least I’d like to imagine that. I wonder if that VP still works at Apple?
- threeseed 3y ago
  [flagged]
stephenr 3y ago
My understanding is that on-device scanning was meant to prevent an argument from {government, law enforcement, 'think of the children' types} against E2EE solutions. Apple's solution for a lot of things in general, is to favour on-device solutions.
- wkat4242 3y ago
  True but it's really hard to imagine how they ever expected the "my own device spies on me by design" to fly. Maybe they miscalculated that the "for the children" argument would convince the consumer which was obviously a huge miscalculation. Even though they clearly thought of safeguards so it wouldn't lead to many issues in practice, it's just so incredibly wrong at the core that it creeps people out just thinking of it. I can't think of anyone in my circles who would accept this. It's just so extremely out of bounds. And I lost a lot of respect for Apple as a result considering they thought it was ok to propose this. And it would have been total theater anyway because obviously the real offenders would just use something else.
  - paulmd 3y ago
    one could argue that it was intended not to fly and that apple successfully threaded the needle of getting E2EE out the door without invoking a legislative response on the basis of "think of the children/terrorists". look at what apple did: they lined up E2EE, got the pushback from law enforcement, floated a solution that would have accomplished the stated goals, then effectively invoked the court of public opinion which said "hell no" and then just launched E2EE anyway. Now we are in the end-state of successfully having E2EE without a bunch of backdoors, and the only real victim is apple's public reputation with a bunch of android nerds who were never going to like them anyway.
    - wkat4242 3y ago
      > the only real victim is apple's public reputation with a bunch of android nerds who were never going to like them anyway. I don't agree. I have several Apple fan friends whose admiration for Apple really dropped. They're still on iOS and Mac because they're so invested (walled garden and all). But the enthusiasm and deep devotion is gone. Not just because of that, though it was the first drop. But also the recent sideloading malicious compliance thing. That deep trust is gone. I used to be an apple fan too but I already dropped off earlier (for want of deciding what I can run on my own hardware). So I'm definitely an android nerd. But this made waves even inside the Apple camp.
    - smoldesu 3y ago
      > without a bunch of backdoors And on what authority can you make that claim? We assumed notifications weren't backdoored until, oops: https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2023/12/apple-admits-to-secretly-giving-governments-push-notification-data/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2023/12/apple-admits-to-...
r00fus 3y ago
> Because Apple's attempt to introduce CSAM scanning is certainly not what I would call a stand against US law enforcement. I do. Because they listened to the dissent and changed course. CSAM scanning offline on the phone is effectively dead.
- mixmastamyk 3y ago
  The "shreiking minority" says otherwise. And the recent hardware back door that existed for years: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38783112 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38783112 https://arstechnica.com/security/2023/12/exploit-used-in-mass-iphone-infection-campaign-targeted-secret-hardware-feature/ https://arstechnica.com/security/2023/12/exploit-used-in-mas... There probably are others.
astrange 3y ago
Automated CSAM scanning is another Europe thing. The US doesn't require it and isn't going to.
threeseed 3y ago
> Apple's attempt to introduce CSAM scanning Apple almost certainly has CSAM scanning and has had so for years. They just wanted to move it to your device where it's private rather than doing so server side.

buildbot 3y ago

I imagine they are, as well as the e2e encryption added to icloud after they dropped the CSAM thing. My pet theory is basically a rouge VP started the on device scanning project with whatever external org they worked with, and basically blindsided the rest of the company. Tim Cook probably called the person and was like what the fuck. Or at least I’d like to imagine that. I wonder if that VP still works at Apple?

threeseed 3y ago
[flagged]

stephenr 3y ago

My understanding is that on-device scanning was meant to prevent an argument from {government, law enforcement, 'think of the children' types} against E2EE solutions. Apple's solution for a lot of things in general, is to favour on-device solutions.

wkat4242 3y ago
True but it's really hard to imagine how they ever expected the "my own device spies on me by design" to fly. Maybe they miscalculated that the "for the children" argument would convince the consumer which was obviously a huge miscalculation. Even though they clearly thought of safeguards so it wouldn't lead to many issues in practice, it's just so incredibly wrong at the core that it creeps people out just thinking of it. I can't think of anyone in my circles who would accept this. It's just so extremely out of bounds. And I lost a lot of respect for Apple as a result considering they thought it was ok to propose this. And it would have been total theater anyway because obviously the real offenders would just use something else.
- paulmd 3y ago
  one could argue that it was intended not to fly and that apple successfully threaded the needle of getting E2EE out the door without invoking a legislative response on the basis of "think of the children/terrorists". look at what apple did: they lined up E2EE, got the pushback from law enforcement, floated a solution that would have accomplished the stated goals, then effectively invoked the court of public opinion which said "hell no" and then just launched E2EE anyway. Now we are in the end-state of successfully having E2EE without a bunch of backdoors, and the only real victim is apple's public reputation with a bunch of android nerds who were never going to like them anyway.
  - wkat4242 3y ago
    > the only real victim is apple's public reputation with a bunch of android nerds who were never going to like them anyway. I don't agree. I have several Apple fan friends whose admiration for Apple really dropped. They're still on iOS and Mac because they're so invested (walled garden and all). But the enthusiasm and deep devotion is gone. Not just because of that, though it was the first drop. But also the recent sideloading malicious compliance thing. That deep trust is gone. I used to be an apple fan too but I already dropped off earlier (for want of deciding what I can run on my own hardware). So I'm definitely an android nerd. But this made waves even inside the Apple camp.
  - smoldesu 3y ago
    > without a bunch of backdoors And on what authority can you make that claim? We assumed notifications weren't backdoored until, oops: https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2023/12/apple-admits-to-secretly-giving-governments-push-notification-data/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2023/12/apple-admits-to-...

r00fus 3y ago

> Because Apple's attempt to introduce CSAM scanning is certainly not what I would call a stand against US law enforcement. I do. Because they listened to the dissent and changed course. CSAM scanning offline on the phone is effectively dead.

mixmastamyk 3y ago
The "shreiking minority" says otherwise. And the recent hardware back door that existed for years: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38783112 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38783112 https://arstechnica.com/security/2023/12/exploit-used-in-mass-iphone-infection-campaign-targeted-secret-hardware-feature/ https://arstechnica.com/security/2023/12/exploit-used-in-mas... There probably are others.

astrange 3y ago

Automated CSAM scanning is another Europe thing. The US doesn't require it and isn't going to.

threeseed 3y ago

> Apple's attempt to introduce CSAM scanning Apple almost certainly has CSAM scanning and has had so for years. They just wanted to move it to your device where it's private rather than doing so server side.