6 ms·

nice, but how many of you are ready to sacrifice your life (weekends) for a company's profit. - Curing cancer: yes - Saving lives : yes - Building an outlet for

by dvhh 14y ago

nice, but how many of you are ready to sacrifice your life (weekends) for a company's profit. - Curing cancer: yes - Saving lives : yes - Building an outlet for yet spending more money : no As much a I love my work, I won't love it more than my wife, or my future children.

davidw 14y ago
Yeah, I had a similar reaction to that line. I might consider working weekends if I get something out of it other than "swimming in the deep end", like, say, extra money, or the prospect of extra money in the future in the case of a startup where one puts in that kind of time in the hope of future rewards. That is made possible by having a significant equity stake in the company. I mean, if you look at it from something of a Homo Economicus point of view, consider the pay rate a good developer gets, and that that money for the weekend is essentially getting donated to Apple Inc, a massively profitable corporation.
- chc 14y ago
  Making this material attractive to people who would just as soon work as quants is probably not Apple's goal here. If you don't react favorably, you probably aren't what they want. (I'm not saying this is necessarily a bad thing, just that if money is really all you can think of in a job, some companies are more OK with that and others prefer passion, and it's good that people suited for one kind don't end up at the other.)
  - davidw 14y ago
    I'm good at what I do because I'm passionate about it, and I want to be justly compensated for my time. The rest of what they write isn't bad: everyone likes to feel like they're working on something that matters.
  - marvin 14y ago
    Doesn't it somehow rub you the wrong way to pay employees in "passion" versus money? In my head, money is equivalent to respect. If the majority of the earnings from your work goes to someone else and you still have to do work really hard ("because we're changing the world! everyone has to pitch in! weeeeee!!"), you are ipso facto in a position of weakness and are not earning the respect of your superiors. There is something that seems very wrong about this.
  - praptak 14y ago
    > just that if money is really all you can think of in a job, some companies are more OK with that and others prefer passion, and it's good that people suited for one kind don't end up at the other. You seem to imply it's either passion or compensation which looks like a false dichotomy to me. Lots of people have passion for their work but still they're smart enough to avoid companies who treat the passion like a weakness to exploit so that they can pay lower wages.
    - deleted 14y ago
      [deleted]
    - pm90 14y ago
      I agree. And it seems a bit hypocritical to be coming from a company that expects higher prices for their products because of the work they have put into it. Why should the employees not expect the same for their time?
      - easp 14y ago
        Because some people realize that money is just a tool. They may prefer to get paid to work on something they are passionate about than get paid more for something they aren't. Put another way, if you are going to end up working over a weekend, would you rather do it because you love your work, or because you get paid time-and-a-half?
kompiebutut 14y ago
maybe we can replace the 'Apple' word with something that really meant to us. specially kids, they are our greatest startup.
biot 14y ago
Do you actively seek to minimize your work to the greatest extent possible so that you can maximize family time? Perhaps if you moved to a country with a really low cost of living, you could consult remotely for a few hours a week and spend every other waking moment constantly interacting with your family. Or is it more about balance and avoiding extremes?
- dvhh 14y ago
  Hum, even balance is a subjective view in that case, plus my answer would not probably count as much as I am one of those lazy french. I would hope that my view is about balance and avoiding extreme, like it was the case in the game industry a few years ago. About your suggestion, not all of us are willing to do that move ( to "cheaper" country, as we've got anchor in our live, family, friends, cars, house, pet, etc .... ), or got jobs that cannot be done remotely. I have already moved to another country, not because life cost was cheap, but because it was less stressful for me. I am passionate about my work but I mostly focus that passion on side projects and hobby (that is for free). Not saying that mixing work and passion is bad ( I think, it is great ), but that can easily be abused ( game industry, animation industry ). I think it is wrong to push people from the start to work on weekends (that was the way I read it), it is the fastest way to burn them out (speak of personal experience here, first company (start-up) I joined payed me ~900$ a month but I didn't care because I was motivated, worked 10am-8pm~1am including some weekends, after 5-6 years of this I was a mess, Apple is hopefully not be the same ).
Drbble 14y ago
> As much a I love my work, I won't love it more than my wife, or my future children. Steve Jobs clearly did, and wanted people with that level of commitment. Can't fault him for trying to find people willing to give him their lives.
- dvhh 14y ago
  My point is that, that was one of the reason he want a sanctioned biography, so that his children (we can defined children as being the generation living with ubiquitous Apple product such as the iPhone of the iPod, but I will stick to the family definition, adopted like he was or blood related ) know him (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2046367/Steve-Jobs-biography-Apple-boss-authorised-book-children.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2046367/Steve-Jobs-b...), he sacrificed his family life for his job. He did great
- joering2 14y ago
  Sorry but I can't helped thinking about Adolph Hitler.
- pm90 14y ago
  True, but he owned the company. That's a pretty huge difference
raverbashing 14y ago
Here's the question (which I sincerely don't know the answer) Do Apple offer stock options? Bonus per project? Other factors could be: what's the impact of having Apple in your CV? Getting to say you worked on project X ?(Apparently this is something Apple limits disclosure, still, if you're an cell phone engineer not a lot of projects you could work) Sacrificing your life for a company's profit looks like the job is only a physical process of "turning a money machine". And of course, I hate sacrificing weekends and holidays.

by dvhh 14y ago

davidw 14y ago

Yeah, I had a similar reaction to that line. I might consider working weekends if I get something out of it other than "swimming in the deep end", like, say, extra money, or the prospect of extra money in the future in the case of a startup where one puts in that kind of time in the hope of future rewards. That is made possible by having a significant equity stake in the company. I mean, if you look at it from something of a Homo Economicus point of view, consider the pay rate a good developer gets, and that that money for the weekend is essentially getting donated to Apple Inc, a massively profitable corporation.

chc 14y ago
Making this material attractive to people who would just as soon work as quants is probably not Apple's goal here. If you don't react favorably, you probably aren't what they want. (I'm not saying this is necessarily a bad thing, just that if money is really all you can think of in a job, some companies are more OK with that and others prefer passion, and it's good that people suited for one kind don't end up at the other.)
- davidw 14y ago
  I'm good at what I do because I'm passionate about it, and I want to be justly compensated for my time. The rest of what they write isn't bad: everyone likes to feel like they're working on something that matters.
- marvin 14y ago
  Doesn't it somehow rub you the wrong way to pay employees in "passion" versus money? In my head, money is equivalent to respect. If the majority of the earnings from your work goes to someone else and you still have to do work really hard ("because we're changing the world! everyone has to pitch in! weeeeee!!"), you are ipso facto in a position of weakness and are not earning the respect of your superiors. There is something that seems very wrong about this.
- praptak 14y ago
  > just that if money is really all you can think of in a job, some companies are more OK with that and others prefer passion, and it's good that people suited for one kind don't end up at the other. You seem to imply it's either passion or compensation which looks like a false dichotomy to me. Lots of people have passion for their work but still they're smart enough to avoid companies who treat the passion like a weakness to exploit so that they can pay lower wages.
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
  - pm90 14y ago
    I agree. And it seems a bit hypocritical to be coming from a company that expects higher prices for their products because of the work they have put into it. Why should the employees not expect the same for their time?
    - easp 14y ago
      Because some people realize that money is just a tool. They may prefer to get paid to work on something they are passionate about than get paid more for something they aren't. Put another way, if you are going to end up working over a weekend, would you rather do it because you love your work, or because you get paid time-and-a-half?

kompiebutut 14y ago

maybe we can replace the 'Apple' word with something that really meant to us. specially kids, they are our greatest startup.

biot 14y ago

Do you actively seek to minimize your work to the greatest extent possible so that you can maximize family time? Perhaps if you moved to a country with a really low cost of living, you could consult remotely for a few hours a week and spend every other waking moment constantly interacting with your family. Or is it more about balance and avoiding extremes?

dvhh 14y ago
Hum, even balance is a subjective view in that case, plus my answer would not probably count as much as I am one of those lazy french. I would hope that my view is about balance and avoiding extreme, like it was the case in the game industry a few years ago. About your suggestion, not all of us are willing to do that move ( to "cheaper" country, as we've got anchor in our live, family, friends, cars, house, pet, etc .... ), or got jobs that cannot be done remotely. I have already moved to another country, not because life cost was cheap, but because it was less stressful for me. I am passionate about my work but I mostly focus that passion on side projects and hobby (that is for free). Not saying that mixing work and passion is bad ( I think, it is great ), but that can easily be abused ( game industry, animation industry ). I think it is wrong to push people from the start to work on weekends (that was the way I read it), it is the fastest way to burn them out (speak of personal experience here, first company (start-up) I joined payed me ~900$ a month but I didn't care because I was motivated, worked 10am-8pm~1am including some weekends, after 5-6 years of this I was a mess, Apple is hopefully not be the same ).

Drbble 14y ago

> As much a I love my work, I won't love it more than my wife, or my future children. Steve Jobs clearly did, and wanted people with that level of commitment. Can't fault him for trying to find people willing to give him their lives.

dvhh 14y ago
My point is that, that was one of the reason he want a sanctioned biography, so that his children (we can defined children as being the generation living with ubiquitous Apple product such as the iPhone of the iPod, but I will stick to the family definition, adopted like he was or blood related ) know him (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2046367/Steve-Jobs-biography-Apple-boss-authorised-book-children.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2046367/Steve-Jobs-b...), he sacrificed his family life for his job. He did great
joering2 14y ago
Sorry but I can't helped thinking about Adolph Hitler.
pm90 14y ago
True, but he owned the company. That's a pretty huge difference

raverbashing 14y ago

Here's the question (which I sincerely don't know the answer) Do Apple offer stock options? Bonus per project? Other factors could be: what's the impact of having Apple in your CV? Getting to say you worked on project X ?(Apparently this is something Apple limits disclosure, still, if you're an cell phone engineer not a lot of projects you could work) Sacrificing your life for a company's profit looks like the job is only a physical process of "turning a money machine". And of course, I hate sacrificing weekends and holidays.