5 ms·

Building a gas pipeline with an adversary to disadvantage your eastern neighbors was likely a bad move.

miroljub 3y ago
Yes, it's much better when your eastern neighbours and an adversary hold you a hostage. With the help of your oversea "friend".
- poszlem 3y ago
  When you choose a deal with Russia to screw up you neighbours, who also happen to be in a political union with you, you are not the "innocent" part of the situation.
hartator 3y ago
Yes, destroying things is always the right side of history.
- poszlem 3y ago
  As much, as plotting with Russia over the heads of Eastern Europeans.
danbruc 3y ago
Russia was no adversary when Nord Stream was build and given the repeated disputes between Russia and Ukraine with regard to gas [1] it seems completely reasonable that they wanted to bypass them. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia%E2%80%93Ukraine_gas_disputes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia%E2%80%93Ukraine_gas_dis...
- justrealist 3y ago
  Nord Stream entered service in 2011, 3 years after Russia invaded Georgia. Everyone except Merkel knew that Russia would eventually be a problem for eastern europe.
  - danbruc 3y ago
    But the project started in 1997 and began construction in 2005. And Merkel was among those that advocated for a different politics towards Russia, one that might have avoided the situation of today.
    - justrealist 3y ago
      > one that might have avoided the situation of today ???? Merkel had her way 16 years, her politics are exactly what got us here. This is a ridiculous statement.
      - danbruc 3y ago
        Germany was among those countries that were against NATO memberships for Georgia and Ukraine in 2008.
        poszlem 3y ago
        Which makes sense, the plan in Germany was pretty straightforward: snag cheap gas from Russia, flip it for a profit to the rest of Europe, and juice up their manufacturing sector. Essentially, they were aiming to cash in big time, even if it meant stepping on the toes of their nearest neighbors by dealing with Russia—a country not exactly known for playing nice. Their reasons were only economical, this wasn't really a plan to prevent Russia from threatening their closest neighbours.
        mopsi 3y ago
        And Germany got what they wanted, and Russia invaded Georgia the very same year. Merkels and Schröders are how we got here. German military is now planning for missile attacks against their infrastructure: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/nato-russia-missile-strikes-europe-germany-vbwt2dktt https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/nato-russia-missile-strik...
        danbruc 3y ago
- PedroBatista 3y ago
  And that was the quintessential mistake of the West. Thinking the Cold War ended because the USSR was dissolved. Their minds went out of the game while Russia was still on that game, only paused it temporarily because the 90s were brutal for them. On the part of Germany, IMO it was/is a bundle of many things like Germany is very industry heavy and having cheap gas is a much needed advantage, to the point all those bright stoic German quality minds made their own country very dependent on Russia. Also their historic and somewhat fascination with Russia, thinking they can "fix" them and be European brothers. Also psyops, treason and corruption at the highest levels. Best known cases: Gerhard Schröder and Angela Merkel's early life and questionable policies.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- fuzzfactor 3y ago
  >Russia was no adversary when Nord Stream was build I would say with 20/20 hindsight that turned out to be completely false.
  - lesuorac 3y ago
    I mean in foresight there was a lot of opposition to it too. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nord_Stream_2#Opposition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nord_Stream_2#Opposition Obviously there's not much you can do with corruption. > One of the last acts of former Chancellor Gerhard Schröder in office was to sign the deal creating the Nord Stream 1 project in 2005. Schröder subsequently became chairman of the company behind it and took several directorial positions in Russian energy companies in the following years.

Yes, it's much better when your eastern neighbours and an adversary hold you a hostage. With the help of your oversea "friend".

poszlem 3y ago
When you choose a deal with Russia to screw up you neighbours, who also happen to be in a political union with you, you are not the "innocent" part of the situation.

hartator 3y ago

Yes, destroying things is always the right side of history.

poszlem 3y ago
As much, as plotting with Russia over the heads of Eastern Europeans.

danbruc 3y ago

Russia was no adversary when Nord Stream was build and given the repeated disputes between Russia and Ukraine with regard to gas [1] it seems completely reasonable that they wanted to bypass them. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia%E2%80%93Ukraine_gas_disputes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia%E2%80%93Ukraine_gas_dis...

justrealist 3y ago
Nord Stream entered service in 2011, 3 years after Russia invaded Georgia. Everyone except Merkel knew that Russia would eventually be a problem for eastern europe.
- danbruc 3y ago
  But the project started in 1997 and began construction in 2005. And Merkel was among those that advocated for a different politics towards Russia, one that might have avoided the situation of today.
  - justrealist 3y ago
    > one that might have avoided the situation of today ???? Merkel had her way 16 years, her politics are exactly what got us here. This is a ridiculous statement.
    - danbruc 3y ago
      Germany was among those countries that were against NATO memberships for Georgia and Ukraine in 2008.
      - poszlem 3y ago
        Which makes sense, the plan in Germany was pretty straightforward: snag cheap gas from Russia, flip it for a profit to the rest of Europe, and juice up their manufacturing sector. Essentially, they were aiming to cash in big time, even if it meant stepping on the toes of their nearest neighbors by dealing with Russia—a country not exactly known for playing nice. Their reasons were only economical, this wasn't really a plan to prevent Russia from threatening their closest neighbours.
      - mopsi 3y ago
        And Germany got what they wanted, and Russia invaded Georgia the very same year. Merkels and Schröders are how we got here. German military is now planning for missile attacks against their infrastructure: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/nato-russia-missile-strikes-europe-germany-vbwt2dktt https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/nato-russia-missile-strik...
        danbruc 3y ago
PedroBatista 3y ago
And that was the quintessential mistake of the West. Thinking the Cold War ended because the USSR was dissolved. Their minds went out of the game while Russia was still on that game, only paused it temporarily because the 90s were brutal for them. On the part of Germany, IMO it was/is a bundle of many things like Germany is very industry heavy and having cheap gas is a much needed advantage, to the point all those bright stoic German quality minds made their own country very dependent on Russia. Also their historic and somewhat fascination with Russia, thinking they can "fix" them and be European brothers. Also psyops, treason and corruption at the highest levels. Best known cases: Gerhard Schröder and Angela Merkel's early life and questionable policies.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
fuzzfactor 3y ago
>Russia was no adversary when Nord Stream was build I would say with 20/20 hindsight that turned out to be completely false.
- lesuorac 3y ago
  I mean in foresight there was a lot of opposition to it too. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nord_Stream_2#Opposition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nord_Stream_2#Opposition Obviously there's not much you can do with corruption. > One of the last acts of former Chancellor Gerhard Schröder in office was to sign the deal creating the Nord Stream 1 project in 2005. Schröder subsequently became chairman of the company behind it and took several directorial positions in Russian energy companies in the following years.