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India for all intents and purposes is now an ethno-national state with no press freedom, severe persecution of minorities, and human rights violations aplenty.

India for all intents and purposes is now an ethno-national state with no press freedom, severe persecution of minorities, and human rights violations aplenty. I grew up in India when it was a relatively secular state. For example, when the Babri Masjid (mosque) was destroyed by Hindus in the early 90s, the national magazine, India Today and major newspapers led with the headline, "India's Shame" and acknowledge how bad that was for Indian secularism. Less than a month ago the same mosque was now converted into a Hindu temple and the press and government led the cheerleading. https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/1/22/why-is-indias-ram-temple-in-ayodhya-controversial https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/1/22/why-is-indias-ram-t...

risinaf661 3y ago
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1sembiyan 3y ago
1. No press freedom: what explains the presence and popularity of the wire, scroll, news minute, the quint, etc? Traditional print media that’s critical of the current party in power includes The Hindu, Telegraph etc. That there’s no press freedom is false. 2. Ethno-nationalist state: what ethnicity are we talking about here? BJP loses often in elections locally, and majority of their opponents are Hindus. What India has always been is illiberal. You are weakening your point by exaggerating the current conditions. Moreover this prosed ban is because we have an overzealous bureaucracy that doesn’t understand technology and does not care to. It’s got nothing to do with what India has become.
- supriyo-biswas 3y ago
  As a data point, the previous government that grandparent speaks of also has been involved in actual suspension of democracy, abolition of press rights, and jailing of opposition leaders[1]. Indian administrations have always have had an authoritarian bent regardless of who has been in power. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emergency_(India) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emergency_(India)
- derpitron 3y ago
  [dead]
  - web108 3y ago
    This comment is filled with so many half-truths and misinformation, it should not belong here. Please respect hacker news guidelines https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html * Please don't use Hacker News for political or ideological battle. That tramples curiosity.*
    - derpitron 3y ago
      Care to tell me what exactly is "misinformation" when every point has been cited from articles by reputable local/international media sources? If your only argument is about a so called "western bias", forgive me for laughing. I'm under no obligation to kowtow to the delusions of an authoritarian country and it's supporters.
dartharva 3y ago
The mosque was converted by a judgement from India's Supreme Court. But yes, the administration's stunt of overtly participating in religious conflict by having the PM and country leaders inaugurate the temple sure leaves a bad taste. Thankfully, religion as a whole is becoming increasingly irrelevant among new generations as Western individualism takes over. This incident will hopefully be remembered just as an appeasement tactic for old to middle-aged people and not an escalation.
- bluish29 3y ago
  >The mosque was converted by a judgement from India's Supreme Court Many would say that doesn't change anything because they think that Indian supreme court is just another tool in the hand of Modi's government [1] [2] [3]. [1] https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2023/12/27/in-india-narendra-modi-s-grip-on-the-supreme-court_6378593_4.html https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2023/12/27/i... [2] https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2024/02/what-has-happened-rule-law-india/677337/ https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2024/02/wh... [3] https://www.lawfaremedia.org/article/india-s-justice-system-is-no-longer-independent-part-ii https://www.lawfaremedia.org/article/india-s-justice-system-...
  - recroad 3y ago
    Yes, many would say that and they'd be correct in saying that.
  - dartharva 3y ago
    Many would say that regarding this decision, yes. But they'd be overlooking the kind of exceptional dilemma the court faced in this case - it was not just about determining what club gets a legal right over public property, but about defusing a several generations-long historical and religious conflict of vastly higher scale. In the end they had to pass a judgement that antagonized the least number of people and prevented large-scale disruption and violence. We can debate how right or wrong it was all day, but that won't take away the fact that there was no other way of resolving this without messing up social harmony. Whether or not Modi's government has undue influence over the judiciary is still up for debate, but in this particular case, I fail to see how it could have made a difference either way.
eklavya 3y ago
Yeah not like they won a case in supreme court or something. Do you honestly believe they couldn't have done that with violence in all these years? I don't understand, some people here just really have a beef with India/Hindus.
tho2344234234 3y ago
[flagged]
unmole 3y ago
> ethno-national state Arguably the most diverse country in the world is an ethno-national state?
- huytersd 3y ago
  Well, it’s a very diverse “ethno”
- bongoman37 3y ago
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oarla 3y ago
Tangential to the article being discussed, as this is not about secularism. Not all the facts provided, just a one sided view that is parroted repeatedly in online forums with the intention of claiming a moral high ground when the facts are far more complex and intricate.
- heikrana 3y ago
  > the facts are far more complex and intricate Exactly.
testhn2ac 3y ago
[flagged]
- heikrana 3y ago
  > Aljazeera funded by the 'human rights friendly' government of Qatar says so. Must be the truth :)) Lol
dotnet00 3y ago
India is illiberal and authoritarian, but boiling down the extremely complex issue of the Babri Masjid to "Hindus tore it down and replaced it with a temple" is very disingenuous. The case remained unaddressed - even through the rule of more secular parties - for decades for good reasons. Plus, India has a long record of kneejerk censorship. There was the incident with GitHub back in 2014, and even before then there have been many cases of the national or state governments censoring material that could be construed as criticizing them or material they could construe as supporting a terrorist movement.
- sremani 3y ago
  Yes, India is not liberal and Yes, India has leaders who concentrated power in their hands overrode the States. On the other side of the spectrum if you have lived experience of the 80s, you would understand chaos and anarchy of multiple ethno-insugrencies. As a man who grew up in South India, I am proponent of State's rights etc. But it's not magic, India's geography and demogrphics compel, this cycle of powerful center that is near authoritarian to weak center that is a monumental chaos. In between there are periods of some balance. That was the nature of India since the Mahajanapadha period.
ridiculous_leke 3y ago
Such claims have absolutely no relevance to the story. The block request came from Tamil Nadu police where major politics is on the opposite end of the spectrum. I wish I could go back to the time where people actually read the article and stay on point.
- dartharva 3y ago
  > I wish I could go back to the time where people actually read the article and stay on point. Has such a time ever existed?

risinaf661 3y ago

[dead]

1sembiyan 3y ago

1. No press freedom: what explains the presence and popularity of the wire, scroll, news minute, the quint, etc? Traditional print media that’s critical of the current party in power includes The Hindu, Telegraph etc. That there’s no press freedom is false. 2. Ethno-nationalist state: what ethnicity are we talking about here? BJP loses often in elections locally, and majority of their opponents are Hindus. What India has always been is illiberal. You are weakening your point by exaggerating the current conditions. Moreover this prosed ban is because we have an overzealous bureaucracy that doesn’t understand technology and does not care to. It’s got nothing to do with what India has become.

supriyo-biswas 3y ago
As a data point, the previous government that grandparent speaks of also has been involved in actual suspension of democracy, abolition of press rights, and jailing of opposition leaders[1]. Indian administrations have always have had an authoritarian bent regardless of who has been in power. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emergency_(India) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emergency_(India)
derpitron 3y ago
[dead]
- web108 3y ago
  This comment is filled with so many half-truths and misinformation, it should not belong here. Please respect hacker news guidelines https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html * Please don't use Hacker News for political or ideological battle. That tramples curiosity.*
  - derpitron 3y ago
    Care to tell me what exactly is "misinformation" when every point has been cited from articles by reputable local/international media sources? If your only argument is about a so called "western bias", forgive me for laughing. I'm under no obligation to kowtow to the delusions of an authoritarian country and it's supporters.

dartharva 3y ago

The mosque was converted by a judgement from India's Supreme Court. But yes, the administration's stunt of overtly participating in religious conflict by having the PM and country leaders inaugurate the temple sure leaves a bad taste. Thankfully, religion as a whole is becoming increasingly irrelevant among new generations as Western individualism takes over. This incident will hopefully be remembered just as an appeasement tactic for old to middle-aged people and not an escalation.

bluish29 3y ago
>The mosque was converted by a judgement from India's Supreme Court Many would say that doesn't change anything because they think that Indian supreme court is just another tool in the hand of Modi's government [1] [2] [3]. [1] https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2023/12/27/in-india-narendra-modi-s-grip-on-the-supreme-court_6378593_4.html https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2023/12/27/i... [2] https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2024/02/what-has-happened-rule-law-india/677337/ https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2024/02/wh... [3] https://www.lawfaremedia.org/article/india-s-justice-system-is-no-longer-independent-part-ii https://www.lawfaremedia.org/article/india-s-justice-system-...
- recroad 3y ago
  Yes, many would say that and they'd be correct in saying that.
- dartharva 3y ago
  Many would say that regarding this decision, yes. But they'd be overlooking the kind of exceptional dilemma the court faced in this case - it was not just about determining what club gets a legal right over public property, but about defusing a several generations-long historical and religious conflict of vastly higher scale. In the end they had to pass a judgement that antagonized the least number of people and prevented large-scale disruption and violence. We can debate how right or wrong it was all day, but that won't take away the fact that there was no other way of resolving this without messing up social harmony. Whether or not Modi's government has undue influence over the judiciary is still up for debate, but in this particular case, I fail to see how it could have made a difference either way.

eklavya 3y ago

Yeah not like they won a case in supreme court or something. Do you honestly believe they couldn't have done that with violence in all these years? I don't understand, some people here just really have a beef with India/Hindus.

tho2344234234 3y ago

[flagged]

unmole 3y ago

> ethno-national state Arguably the most diverse country in the world is an ethno-national state?

huytersd 3y ago
Well, it’s a very diverse “ethno”
bongoman37 3y ago
[dead]

oarla 3y ago

Tangential to the article being discussed, as this is not about secularism. Not all the facts provided, just a one sided view that is parroted repeatedly in online forums with the intention of claiming a moral high ground when the facts are far more complex and intricate.

heikrana 3y ago
> the facts are far more complex and intricate Exactly.

testhn2ac 3y ago

[flagged]

heikrana 3y ago
> Aljazeera funded by the 'human rights friendly' government of Qatar says so. Must be the truth :)) Lol

dotnet00 3y ago

India is illiberal and authoritarian, but boiling down the extremely complex issue of the Babri Masjid to "Hindus tore it down and replaced it with a temple" is very disingenuous. The case remained unaddressed - even through the rule of more secular parties - for decades for good reasons. Plus, India has a long record of kneejerk censorship. There was the incident with GitHub back in 2014, and even before then there have been many cases of the national or state governments censoring material that could be construed as criticizing them or material they could construe as supporting a terrorist movement.

sremani 3y ago
Yes, India is not liberal and Yes, India has leaders who concentrated power in their hands overrode the States. On the other side of the spectrum if you have lived experience of the 80s, you would understand chaos and anarchy of multiple ethno-insugrencies. As a man who grew up in South India, I am proponent of State's rights etc. But it's not magic, India's geography and demogrphics compel, this cycle of powerful center that is near authoritarian to weak center that is a monumental chaos. In between there are periods of some balance. That was the nature of India since the Mahajanapadha period.

ridiculous_leke 3y ago

Such claims have absolutely no relevance to the story. The block request came from Tamil Nadu police where major politics is on the opposite end of the spectrum. I wish I could go back to the time where people actually read the article and stay on point.

dartharva 3y ago
> I wish I could go back to the time where people actually read the article and stay on point. Has such a time ever existed?