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How is OTC better than markets? PPA's still exist alongside markets without issues.

by jnsaff2 3y ago

pyrale 3y ago
I'm not saying one is better than the other. I'm saying power availability doesn't require a market.
- jnsaff2 3y ago
  What are you trying to claim then? That with completely non-public OTC deals prices would be better somehow?
  - pyrale 3y ago
    > The way I see 2022 was a crisis of energy PRICES, had the markets not been there it might have been a crisis of energy AVAILABILITY. I'm simply saying that markets have no first-order effect on availability. As for prices, it's another matter.
    - jnsaff2 3y ago
      Unavailability of generation due to it being uneconomical to generate has a very direct effect on availability. The electricity market price is downstream dependent on gas market price among others. You want to also remove gas markets then? Anyway, I would gladly hear what would have 2022 looked like had there not been electricity markets.
      - pyrale 3y ago
        > Unavailability of generation due to it being uneconomical to generate has a very direct effect on availability. Production can't be ramped up significantly in the span of a crisis. In that sense, a different trading scheme wouldn't have made a difference in terms of resource availability during the crisis. > The electricity market price is downstream dependent on gas market price among others. You want to also remove gas markets then? Not sure what connection you make between that and my point. > Anyway, I would gladly hear what would have 2022 looked like had there not been electricity markets. From an availability PoV, exactly the same. Markets are not responsible for making sure that production is available, or actually used ; that's the role of TSOs.
        jnsaff2 3y ago
        > Production can't be ramped up significantly in the span of a crisis. In that sense, a different trading scheme wouldn't have made a difference in terms of resource availability during the crisis. What do those words even mean? If you are a power plant and your consumables price goes up. If you can't get the price you sell electricity at increased then you will shut down and your generation will be not available to the grid.
        pyrale 3y ago
        > If you can't get the price you sell electricity at increased then you will shut down and your generation will be not available to the grid. That simply doesn't happen. Whether an exchange is there to "facilitate" trade, or whether Alice in Paris calls bob in Frankfurt to ask how much 2 GWh will cost for the next day, money will change hands, and the plant will work.
        jnsaff2 3y ago
        And that would be cheaper how? Each of the hundreds of energy retailers going begging each of the thousands or hundreds of thousands of electricity generators? All the while thinking if only there would be an online service to sort out the best deal .... oh wait
        pyrale 3y ago
        > And that would be cheaper how? https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=pyrale#39381529 https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=pyrale#39381529

How is OTC better than markets? PPA's still exist alongside markets without issues.

pyrale 3y ago

I'm not saying one is better than the other. I'm saying power availability doesn't require a market.

jnsaff2 3y ago
What are you trying to claim then? That with completely non-public OTC deals prices would be better somehow?
- pyrale 3y ago
  > The way I see 2022 was a crisis of energy PRICES, had the markets not been there it might have been a crisis of energy AVAILABILITY. I'm simply saying that markets have no first-order effect on availability. As for prices, it's another matter.
  - jnsaff2 3y ago
    Unavailability of generation due to it being uneconomical to generate has a very direct effect on availability. The electricity market price is downstream dependent on gas market price among others. You want to also remove gas markets then? Anyway, I would gladly hear what would have 2022 looked like had there not been electricity markets.
    - pyrale 3y ago
      > Unavailability of generation due to it being uneconomical to generate has a very direct effect on availability. Production can't be ramped up significantly in the span of a crisis. In that sense, a different trading scheme wouldn't have made a difference in terms of resource availability during the crisis. > The electricity market price is downstream dependent on gas market price among others. You want to also remove gas markets then? Not sure what connection you make between that and my point. > Anyway, I would gladly hear what would have 2022 looked like had there not been electricity markets. From an availability PoV, exactly the same. Markets are not responsible for making sure that production is available, or actually used ; that's the role of TSOs.
      - jnsaff2 3y ago
        > Production can't be ramped up significantly in the span of a crisis. In that sense, a different trading scheme wouldn't have made a difference in terms of resource availability during the crisis. What do those words even mean? If you are a power plant and your consumables price goes up. If you can't get the price you sell electricity at increased then you will shut down and your generation will be not available to the grid.
        pyrale 3y ago
        > If you can't get the price you sell electricity at increased then you will shut down and your generation will be not available to the grid. That simply doesn't happen. Whether an exchange is there to "facilitate" trade, or whether Alice in Paris calls bob in Frankfurt to ask how much 2 GWh will cost for the next day, money will change hands, and the plant will work.
        jnsaff2 3y ago
        And that would be cheaper how? Each of the hundreds of energy retailers going begging each of the thousands or hundreds of thousands of electricity generators? All the while thinking if only there would be an online service to sort out the best deal .... oh wait
        pyrale 3y ago
        > And that would be cheaper how? https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=pyrale#39381529 https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=pyrale#39381529