6 ms·

Apple on course to break all Web Apps in EU within 20 days

49 points by judiisis 3y ago

raxxorraxor 3y ago
It is a typical case where a corporation hinders development of technology in favor of business interests. Business interests are different to the interests of users. They say so themselves in their mails. And yet many are praising a locked down environment, even if the implications are obvious. Especially for the craft of software development, where I find such a position especially ironic.
- saiya-jin 3y ago
  Half of this forum works or worked for them, those can't and won't be objective (I never ever read any internal scorching criticism here unlike every other FAANG, which is unavoidable in such a ultra massive corporation). Rest have probably some long held stocks or some obscure blind patriotism (which patriotism isn't blind). If you look for objectivity on Apple, this forum is as far as one can get on a web not containing the fruit name in its URL.
- niutech 3y ago
  Let's boycott Apple products, use FOSS alternatives, such as Ubuntu Touch / GNOME Mobile / KDE Plasma / AOSP / Sailfish OS.
JimDabell 3y ago
As I said elsewhere: this is an extremely dishonest article. The change: PWAs installed to the home screen will no longer open as individual apps, but as web apps in the browser. Most web apps are already only used in the browser, so almost all web apps will continue to work the same as before. What will break: functionality conditional upon installing to the home screen. The big one is push notifications. What won’t break: almost every web app will continue to work the same as before. Everything that currently works when opened in Safari will continue to work like that. Open Web Advocacy really really want people to equate the functionality specific to PWAs installed to the home screen with all web apps. This is not true. It’s perfectly fine to be angry with Apple for this change. It’s perfectly fine to demand change. What is not fine is telling outright lies like “Apple will break all web apps”. This is not even remotely close to being true and they know this. It’s an intentional lie to get people angry.
- aosaigh 3y ago
  I don’t think the entire article is dishonest. I do think the headline is sensationalist though (as you described). The majority of the article discusses the home screen issue specifically. Regardless, as someone who builds PWAs in Europe specifically for iOS this is extremely disappointing. It’s a cynical move by Apple and I appreciate this site raising the point as I didn’t see it mentioned anywhere.
- meibo 3y ago
  You're being unrealistic. The app not opening in a standalone window is a major change to the intended experience, and makes what can be, and was in a lot of cases, an experience equal to that of a native app no better than a web page from the early 10s.
  - anakaine 3y ago
    Very much this. Apples move here is a very clear attempt to break UX via affecting UI in a negative fashion, and also takes away a key function that is to be expected of some apps (push notifications). This is very obviously and rather transparently a move to preserve their income stream via the walled garden that is the app store. This move additionally hurts developers. Developing a PWA is far simpler from a multi platform perspective since you're effectively building a responsive full screen website, and instead if you wish to preserve the full screen experience of your users on Apple devices you will.now need to pursue something which compiles to native code - meaning not your PWA. You've at least doubled your overhead development costs in most circumstances.
  - jauntywundrkind 3y ago
    I find opening in a standalone app to be a far worse experience than a web page. PWAs seem like such a downgrade to me: no url bar, no forward/back, no bookmarks, usually no tabs or maybe limited tabs, extension buttons & awesome bar are gone... PWAs recreate a modality that offers less. I would rather have the affordances of a user ahent available. As a user, I wish my user agent would let me un-standalone PWAs & bring them back to the web. Especially as we start to create permissions like Direct Sockets which are gated on PWAs.
szasamasa 3y ago
competition law will enforce alternative app stores and usage of alternative web engines (gecko, chromium besides webkit) the biggest alternative store is the web the website you use today can be a functional "app" tomorrow if well written, without "install" "install" is not even needed, the thing that happens when "installing a website" is just a switch to standalone mode from tab view (and get a direct launch button etc.) by web apps (standalone websites) the browser stays as the running environment on top of OS, the web security model and trust stays intact competition law will demolish anything with time that hinders web apps since in its core it is about enabling alternative distribution platforms (app stores)... users can always choose to stay by safari and not opt in to other browser engines if they fear them... sometimes apple and others talk about like if a device gets compromised by a web app run by firefox on ios then a virus creeps in to the apple cloud and destroys all apple devices... heck no, it can be even MORE secure, safari can be safe, apple can publish webkit safari for security conscious people and chromium safari for bolder ones, there might be a new netscape navigator that never runs javascript as a security model... free to choose! it is sad we have to fight for this to happen I think under steve jobs apple would have the best web browser beating chrome and they would have converted app store monopoly revenue to other sources of revenue based on excellence, not monopoly
szasamasa 3y ago
My take on the subject: The web, by its very nature, is the ultimate app store and Apple's largest potential competitor, highlighting the anti-competitive concerns. However, "website install" implies heightened risk and potential device alteration, needlessly creating confusion and suspicion. This erodes the inherent simplicity of web apps and undermines long-established trust in safe web browsing within a controlled tab, ultimately hindering user adoption. Preserving trust in the web means emphasizing that web apps are inherently enhanced websites, thereby leveraging the existing trust users place in the web. Instead of install we should call it "switching to standalone". It also goes with OS integration and launchers like an app button on mobile and users with associate these things with standalone. The browser engine is an execution environment: web apps inherently operate within the secure sandbox of the browser, potentially even enhancing security as they are isolated from deep system elements. Regulations like the DMA are precisely concerned with ensuring users have meaningful choice between platforms and distribution models. Web apps and alternative browsers are integral in that shift. Inflated security fears of the web platform have long been used to undermine user choice and promote closed systems. This needs to change! Apple maintaining WebKit as a security-focused choice while empowering alternative engines allows them to retain control while simultaneously enabling those who desire more open web technologies. Under Steve Jobs, Apple championed superior web technologies with the introduction of Safari and WebKit. This early spirit focused on excellence that naturally attracted users. Recent strategies, sadly, shift towards leveraging monopolistic advantages rather than leading through pure innovation. It's alarming that legal and regulatory pressure is needed to foster a fundamental debate about open software and user choice.
kyriakos 3y ago
Bureaucrats in EU waiting to cash in

49 points by judiisis 3y ago

It is a typical case where a corporation hinders development of technology in favor of business interests. Business interests are different to the interests of users. They say so themselves in their mails. And yet many are praising a locked down environment, even if the implications are obvious. Especially for the craft of software development, where I find such a position especially ironic.

saiya-jin 3y ago
Half of this forum works or worked for them, those can't and won't be objective (I never ever read any internal scorching criticism here unlike every other FAANG, which is unavoidable in such a ultra massive corporation). Rest have probably some long held stocks or some obscure blind patriotism (which patriotism isn't blind). If you look for objectivity on Apple, this forum is as far as one can get on a web not containing the fruit name in its URL.
niutech 3y ago
Let's boycott Apple products, use FOSS alternatives, such as Ubuntu Touch / GNOME Mobile / KDE Plasma / AOSP / Sailfish OS.

JimDabell 3y ago

As I said elsewhere: this is an extremely dishonest article. The change: PWAs installed to the home screen will no longer open as individual apps, but as web apps in the browser. Most web apps are already only used in the browser, so almost all web apps will continue to work the same as before. What will break: functionality conditional upon installing to the home screen. The big one is push notifications. What won’t break: almost every web app will continue to work the same as before. Everything that currently works when opened in Safari will continue to work like that. Open Web Advocacy really really want people to equate the functionality specific to PWAs installed to the home screen with all web apps. This is not true. It’s perfectly fine to be angry with Apple for this change. It’s perfectly fine to demand change. What is not fine is telling outright lies like “Apple will break all web apps”. This is not even remotely close to being true and they know this. It’s an intentional lie to get people angry.

aosaigh 3y ago
I don’t think the entire article is dishonest. I do think the headline is sensationalist though (as you described). The majority of the article discusses the home screen issue specifically. Regardless, as someone who builds PWAs in Europe specifically for iOS this is extremely disappointing. It’s a cynical move by Apple and I appreciate this site raising the point as I didn’t see it mentioned anywhere.
meibo 3y ago
You're being unrealistic. The app not opening in a standalone window is a major change to the intended experience, and makes what can be, and was in a lot of cases, an experience equal to that of a native app no better than a web page from the early 10s.
- anakaine 3y ago
  Very much this. Apples move here is a very clear attempt to break UX via affecting UI in a negative fashion, and also takes away a key function that is to be expected of some apps (push notifications). This is very obviously and rather transparently a move to preserve their income stream via the walled garden that is the app store. This move additionally hurts developers. Developing a PWA is far simpler from a multi platform perspective since you're effectively building a responsive full screen website, and instead if you wish to preserve the full screen experience of your users on Apple devices you will.now need to pursue something which compiles to native code - meaning not your PWA. You've at least doubled your overhead development costs in most circumstances.
- jauntywundrkind 3y ago
  I find opening in a standalone app to be a far worse experience than a web page. PWAs seem like such a downgrade to me: no url bar, no forward/back, no bookmarks, usually no tabs or maybe limited tabs, extension buttons & awesome bar are gone... PWAs recreate a modality that offers less. I would rather have the affordances of a user ahent available. As a user, I wish my user agent would let me un-standalone PWAs & bring them back to the web. Especially as we start to create permissions like Direct Sockets which are gated on PWAs.

szasamasa 3y ago

competition law will enforce alternative app stores and usage of alternative web engines (gecko, chromium besides webkit) the biggest alternative store is the web the website you use today can be a functional "app" tomorrow if well written, without "install" "install" is not even needed, the thing that happens when "installing a website" is just a switch to standalone mode from tab view (and get a direct launch button etc.) by web apps (standalone websites) the browser stays as the running environment on top of OS, the web security model and trust stays intact competition law will demolish anything with time that hinders web apps since in its core it is about enabling alternative distribution platforms (app stores)... users can always choose to stay by safari and not opt in to other browser engines if they fear them... sometimes apple and others talk about like if a device gets compromised by a web app run by firefox on ios then a virus creeps in to the apple cloud and destroys all apple devices... heck no, it can be even MORE secure, safari can be safe, apple can publish webkit safari for security conscious people and chromium safari for bolder ones, there might be a new netscape navigator that never runs javascript as a security model... free to choose! it is sad we have to fight for this to happen I think under steve jobs apple would have the best web browser beating chrome and they would have converted app store monopoly revenue to other sources of revenue based on excellence, not monopoly

szasamasa 3y ago

My take on the subject: The web, by its very nature, is the ultimate app store and Apple's largest potential competitor, highlighting the anti-competitive concerns. However, "website install" implies heightened risk and potential device alteration, needlessly creating confusion and suspicion. This erodes the inherent simplicity of web apps and undermines long-established trust in safe web browsing within a controlled tab, ultimately hindering user adoption. Preserving trust in the web means emphasizing that web apps are inherently enhanced websites, thereby leveraging the existing trust users place in the web. Instead of install we should call it "switching to standalone". It also goes with OS integration and launchers like an app button on mobile and users with associate these things with standalone. The browser engine is an execution environment: web apps inherently operate within the secure sandbox of the browser, potentially even enhancing security as they are isolated from deep system elements. Regulations like the DMA are precisely concerned with ensuring users have meaningful choice between platforms and distribution models. Web apps and alternative browsers are integral in that shift. Inflated security fears of the web platform have long been used to undermine user choice and promote closed systems. This needs to change! Apple maintaining WebKit as a security-focused choice while empowering alternative engines allows them to retain control while simultaneously enabling those who desire more open web technologies. Under Steve Jobs, Apple championed superior web technologies with the introduction of Safari and WebKit. This early spirit focused on excellence that naturally attracted users. Recent strategies, sadly, shift towards leveraging monopolistic advantages rather than leading through pure innovation. It's alarming that legal and regulatory pressure is needed to foster a fundamental debate about open software and user choice.

kyriakos 3y ago

Bureaucrats in EU waiting to cash in