5 ms·

There might be many issues with the gap in construction standards for offices and housings. A very dumb one: windows are required for houses, where offices can

There might be many issues with the gap in construction standards for offices and housings. A very dumb one: windows are required for houses, where offices can get away with huge open spaces holding a central hub of indoor areas. It's still possible to convert to houses, but that makes for ridiculously small liveable areas compared to the whole floor surface. Then plumbing, evacuation paths etc. can all be solved by throwing money at the problem, but that significantly raises the profitability line.

harha 3y ago
Or fixing the problem of bad regulation - you can always uplift living standards when money is cheap, right now there's a chance to operate more efficiently, rather than create more debt. One idea would be to convert spaces to something competing with airbnb, with the added value of being near offices.
- ugh123 3y ago
  Do you mean like capsule hotels in Tokyo?
  - nox101 3y ago
    How about just regular apartments in Tokyo/Seoul/HK? Much much smaller than USA apartments.... Also much much cheaper, at least than NYC/SF/LA.
    - andy_ppp 3y ago
      I think having the option of really small low quality accommodation in big cities is good, but let’s not pretend Tokyo/Seoul/HK aren’t just as expensive per sqft as NYC/SF/LA.
      - keiferski 3y ago
        They aren’t as expensive per square foot. Sure, Tokyo apartments tend to be smaller, but they aren’t that much smaller. It’s more an efficient use of space than anything. Hong Kong also isn’t comparable to Tokyo, and is much more expensive. I can’t comment on Seoul.
      - csomar 3y ago
        They aren't more expensive. But besides real-estate, they are practical. You don't need a car; and an affordable 24H 7/11 is always downstairs. Also you can stay at the cheapest neighborhood and don't get stabbed; can't guarantee the same in NYC/LA/SF.
      - nox101 3y ago
        Checking online, the average price of an apartment in Santa Monica is $55 per square meter. SF is about $53. NYC is $65. Tokyo is about $27, Seoul is $23 So no, Tokyo and Seoul are not "just as expensive". HK is at $52 though so that was a bad choice on my part.
  - keiferski 3y ago
    It would be really interesting if capsule-style apartments were available in NYC/SF/etc. I would absolutely pay $300-$400 a month for a permanent (not nightly, like they are in Japan) capsule in Lower Manhattan.
    - andy_ppp 3y ago
      Can you show me where you can get a capsule hotel for $10-13 per night? I have not seen this rate, you’d probably be looking as $25 per night minimum probably more. Most actually nice capsule hotels are a tourist attraction and are nearly as expensive as normal hotels.
      - keiferski 3y ago
        I didn’t say it existed, I said it would be nice. I’m comparing it to current overinflated Manhattan housing prices, where a studio is approximately $2000-$3500 depending on the location. It doesn’t seem unreasonable to me that a minimal, efficient capsule residence could get down to $400 a month. And monthly prices are always lower than hotel-style nightly rates, so that isn’t really relevant either.
      - csomar 3y ago
        Not a capsule hotel but your very own room (also Osaka not Tokyo) $9/night: https://www.booking.com/Share-IONY8u https://www.booking.com/Share-IONY8u
        ugh123 3y ago
        Wow, those rooms are passable for that cheap, although clearly on the grimy side. I don't know how this place keeps from turning into a brothel.
  - harha 3y ago
    Sort of - I’m thinking like a college dorm, it’s probably easier to install shared showers and kitchen (they might even already be there) - rather than individually per unit, along with some other useful shared spaces like libraries.
dboreham 3y ago
Charlie Munger enters the room (with no windows)..
- marsissippi 3y ago
  ^ Underappreciated reply https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29105435 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29105435
AnthonyMouse 3y ago
> It's still possible to convert to houses, but that makes for ridiculously small liveable areas compared to the whole floor surface. This is only a problem if it's prohibited by zoning. Otherwise it just gets reflected in the price. Houses in the suburbs often contain a large amount of space with no windows, i.e. a basement the size of the entire first floor, and no one objects because it can be used for storage or a media room that doesn't want windows because of glare. In a multi-tenant building you also have the option to put shared facilities there, or rent the interior section of the floor to small shops while still converting the exterior to housing. But only if you don't have bad laws prohibiting such things.
- makeitdouble 3y ago
  > Otherwise it just gets reflected in the price This is one of my nightmares. What if we allowed people to live in basically confinment cells and they have no choice as they're broke af or the gov or their companies assigns them one in a relocation program. My gut feeling is that the social consequences would be subtle and easily overlooked by officials but widespread and long lasting. > Houses in the suburbs often contain a large amount of space with no windows Yes, it's on top of the wide livable areas though.
  - AnthonyMouse 3y ago
    > What if we allowed people to live in basically confinment cells and they have no choice as they're broke af or the gov or their companies assigns them one in a relocation program. But they'd still have the same choice they have now. Pay more for something better. Right now their choice is to pay more, potentially sacrificing something even worse, or to be homeless. Presumably the small living space is better than homelessness, right? And if it somehow wasn't, the latter would still be available, which is what happens now. > My gut feeling is that the social consequences would be subtle and easily overlooked by officials but widespread and long lasting. It has the potential to do the opposite. It makes low cost housing available (even if it sucks), which provides a backstop against high rents because people won't pay an extra $3000/month just for access to a window. But then the high rents go away and with them the incentive to constrain new construction, and then we can build more apartments that actually have windows. Then the windowless space gets converted back into storage or something as long as better housing isn't forced into scarcity, but if it is then that space goes back into service suppressing high rents. > Yes, it's on top of the wide livable areas though. And so is the part of the office building on the exterior where there is a window.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
sandworm101 3y ago
Bedrooms must have windows. That isnt "very dumb". That is based on centuries of knowledge. It is fire code. It is for comfort. It is for health. Some think it anachronistic only because few alive today have ever lived without it. But forgetting the reasons behind a rule does not make that rule unnecessary. And a rule isnt dumb simply because it decreases profit margins. All rules do.
- Retric 3y ago
  Fire codes require multiple exists not specifically windows that can be used as exists. Which is why people can live on the 30+ floor of buildings without fire escapes. Many people prefer sleeping in rooms without windows or block up existing windows. Historically, these regulations were created to exclude the poor from areas. They do line up with most peoples preferences, but many would rather save in rent vs have a window.
  - sandworm101 3y ago
    A window on the 30th floor certainly isn't an escape route but the requirement does still enforce certain standards that in turn promote fire safety. A window means that every bedroom must be on an exterior wall. That simple rule means one cannot build huge warren-like buildings filled with tiny interior apartments, which would be an evacuation nightmare. The rule also forbids bedrooms deep underground. Yes, this does make apartments more expensive but so does every rule that sets a minimum construction standard.
    - Larrikin 3y ago
      This isn't a rule everywhere. I have the largest and most windows I've ever had in an apartment and my bedroom is in the interior. I actually find it nice, no need for black out curtains, I can easily nap during the day. My apartment is fitted with multiple sprinklers, which I assume gets it up to code.
      - sandworm101 3y ago

harha 3y ago

Or fixing the problem of bad regulation - you can always uplift living standards when money is cheap, right now there's a chance to operate more efficiently, rather than create more debt. One idea would be to convert spaces to something competing with airbnb, with the added value of being near offices.

ugh123 3y ago
Do you mean like capsule hotels in Tokyo?
- nox101 3y ago
  How about just regular apartments in Tokyo/Seoul/HK? Much much smaller than USA apartments.... Also much much cheaper, at least than NYC/SF/LA.
  - andy_ppp 3y ago
    I think having the option of really small low quality accommodation in big cities is good, but let’s not pretend Tokyo/Seoul/HK aren’t just as expensive per sqft as NYC/SF/LA.
    - keiferski 3y ago
      They aren’t as expensive per square foot. Sure, Tokyo apartments tend to be smaller, but they aren’t that much smaller. It’s more an efficient use of space than anything. Hong Kong also isn’t comparable to Tokyo, and is much more expensive. I can’t comment on Seoul.
    - csomar 3y ago
      They aren't more expensive. But besides real-estate, they are practical. You don't need a car; and an affordable 24H 7/11 is always downstairs. Also you can stay at the cheapest neighborhood and don't get stabbed; can't guarantee the same in NYC/LA/SF.
    - nox101 3y ago
      Checking online, the average price of an apartment in Santa Monica is $55 per square meter. SF is about $53. NYC is $65. Tokyo is about $27, Seoul is $23 So no, Tokyo and Seoul are not "just as expensive". HK is at $52 though so that was a bad choice on my part.
- keiferski 3y ago
  It would be really interesting if capsule-style apartments were available in NYC/SF/etc. I would absolutely pay $300-$400 a month for a permanent (not nightly, like they are in Japan) capsule in Lower Manhattan.
  - andy_ppp 3y ago
    Can you show me where you can get a capsule hotel for $10-13 per night? I have not seen this rate, you’d probably be looking as $25 per night minimum probably more. Most actually nice capsule hotels are a tourist attraction and are nearly as expensive as normal hotels.
    - keiferski 3y ago
      I didn’t say it existed, I said it would be nice. I’m comparing it to current overinflated Manhattan housing prices, where a studio is approximately $2000-$3500 depending on the location. It doesn’t seem unreasonable to me that a minimal, efficient capsule residence could get down to $400 a month. And monthly prices are always lower than hotel-style nightly rates, so that isn’t really relevant either.
    - csomar 3y ago
      Not a capsule hotel but your very own room (also Osaka not Tokyo) $9/night: https://www.booking.com/Share-IONY8u https://www.booking.com/Share-IONY8u
      - ugh123 3y ago
        Wow, those rooms are passable for that cheap, although clearly on the grimy side. I don't know how this place keeps from turning into a brothel.
- harha 3y ago
  Sort of - I’m thinking like a college dorm, it’s probably easier to install shared showers and kitchen (they might even already be there) - rather than individually per unit, along with some other useful shared spaces like libraries.

dboreham 3y ago

Charlie Munger enters the room (with no windows)..

marsissippi 3y ago
^ Underappreciated reply https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29105435 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29105435

AnthonyMouse 3y ago

> It's still possible to convert to houses, but that makes for ridiculously small liveable areas compared to the whole floor surface. This is only a problem if it's prohibited by zoning. Otherwise it just gets reflected in the price. Houses in the suburbs often contain a large amount of space with no windows, i.e. a basement the size of the entire first floor, and no one objects because it can be used for storage or a media room that doesn't want windows because of glare. In a multi-tenant building you also have the option to put shared facilities there, or rent the interior section of the floor to small shops while still converting the exterior to housing. But only if you don't have bad laws prohibiting such things.

makeitdouble 3y ago
> Otherwise it just gets reflected in the price This is one of my nightmares. What if we allowed people to live in basically confinment cells and they have no choice as they're broke af or the gov or their companies assigns them one in a relocation program. My gut feeling is that the social consequences would be subtle and easily overlooked by officials but widespread and long lasting. > Houses in the suburbs often contain a large amount of space with no windows Yes, it's on top of the wide livable areas though.
- AnthonyMouse 3y ago
  > What if we allowed people to live in basically confinment cells and they have no choice as they're broke af or the gov or their companies assigns them one in a relocation program. But they'd still have the same choice they have now. Pay more for something better. Right now their choice is to pay more, potentially sacrificing something even worse, or to be homeless. Presumably the small living space is better than homelessness, right? And if it somehow wasn't, the latter would still be available, which is what happens now. > My gut feeling is that the social consequences would be subtle and easily overlooked by officials but widespread and long lasting. It has the potential to do the opposite. It makes low cost housing available (even if it sucks), which provides a backstop against high rents because people won't pay an extra $3000/month just for access to a window. But then the high rents go away and with them the incentive to constrain new construction, and then we can build more apartments that actually have windows. Then the windowless space gets converted back into storage or something as long as better housing isn't forced into scarcity, but if it is then that space goes back into service suppressing high rents. > Yes, it's on top of the wide livable areas though. And so is the part of the office building on the exterior where there is a window.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

sandworm101 3y ago

Bedrooms must have windows. That isnt "very dumb". That is based on centuries of knowledge. It is fire code. It is for comfort. It is for health. Some think it anachronistic only because few alive today have ever lived without it. But forgetting the reasons behind a rule does not make that rule unnecessary. And a rule isnt dumb simply because it decreases profit margins. All rules do.

Retric 3y ago
Fire codes require multiple exists not specifically windows that can be used as exists. Which is why people can live on the 30+ floor of buildings without fire escapes. Many people prefer sleeping in rooms without windows or block up existing windows. Historically, these regulations were created to exclude the poor from areas. They do line up with most peoples preferences, but many would rather save in rent vs have a window.
- sandworm101 3y ago
  A window on the 30th floor certainly isn't an escape route but the requirement does still enforce certain standards that in turn promote fire safety. A window means that every bedroom must be on an exterior wall. That simple rule means one cannot build huge warren-like buildings filled with tiny interior apartments, which would be an evacuation nightmare. The rule also forbids bedrooms deep underground. Yes, this does make apartments more expensive but so does every rule that sets a minimum construction standard.
  - Larrikin 3y ago
    This isn't a rule everywhere. I have the largest and most windows I've ever had in an apartment and my bedroom is in the interior. I actually find it nice, no need for black out curtains, I can easily nap during the day. My apartment is fitted with multiple sprinklers, which I assume gets it up to code.
    - sandworm101 3y ago