4 ms·

the upfront mental cost debate is still going, a few people tried teachings lisps as first languages and people didn't struggle i personally cried a few tears

the upfront mental cost debate is still going, a few people tried teachings lisps as first languages and people didn't struggle i personally cried a few tears when learning java, whereas the weird drscheme class made me all calm and happy programming also blends a few layers into one, and some people are operating at one (line by line modification of data), some want generic infinite freedom[0], you can rapidly see who will enjoy what there [0] one trauma i got during studies is failing an exam because after reviewing ada's manual twice, I couldn't find the page explaining the `object'field` syntax and failed not being able to split a string. i never liked ad-hoc syntax much...

quantified 3y ago
Logo was a great teaching language. If you're not already patterned into C-style programming, it is a great experience.
thot_experiment 3y ago
Yeah that's fair, it also came naturally to me but anecdotally I've found a lot of people struggle with it, especially those who came up through a "get shit done first" type python or java pipeline in a traditional institution or bootcamp rather than having a true CS background.
- agumonkey 3y ago
  python I understand, but get shit done and Java is not a given :p (partly joking, I understand the platform is industry grade)
WillAdams 3y ago
For my comparative programming class in college, I was the only person who got all the Lisp assignments done on time and correctly (it helped that I was deeply into TeX at the time), so there is definitely a mind-frame to be in, and some sort of hurdle which a fair percentage of folks find difficult. One big problem w/ Lisp is that it is so difficult to distribute programs written using it --- I'd give a lot for the ability to compile to a stand-alone program which could then be distributed.
- massysett 3y ago
  SBCL has save-lisp-and-die. The binaries are big though. LispWorks will give you smaller binaries, but it costs money.
  - mark_l_watson 3y ago
    When you build SBCL from source, enable the compressed heaps option. Then when you create an app with save-lisp-and-die, you get a fairly small app even without having a treeshaker to remove unused code.
  - vindarel 3y ago
    My web app with dozens of dependencies is ±35MB, using SBCL core compression. So that's heavier than Rust, lighter than Deno, maybe in par with Go when the application grows. It starts up in 0.4s, without compression it does in 0.01s. https://lispcookbook.github.io/cl-cookbook/scripting.html#building-a-smaller-binary-with-sbcls-core-compression https://lispcookbook.github.io/cl-cookbook/scripting.html#bu...

quantified 3y ago

Logo was a great teaching language. If you're not already patterned into C-style programming, it is a great experience.

thot_experiment 3y ago

Yeah that's fair, it also came naturally to me but anecdotally I've found a lot of people struggle with it, especially those who came up through a "get shit done first" type python or java pipeline in a traditional institution or bootcamp rather than having a true CS background.

agumonkey 3y ago
python I understand, but get shit done and Java is not a given :p (partly joking, I understand the platform is industry grade)

WillAdams 3y ago

For my comparative programming class in college, I was the only person who got all the Lisp assignments done on time and correctly (it helped that I was deeply into TeX at the time), so there is definitely a mind-frame to be in, and some sort of hurdle which a fair percentage of folks find difficult. One big problem w/ Lisp is that it is so difficult to distribute programs written using it --- I'd give a lot for the ability to compile to a stand-alone program which could then be distributed.

massysett 3y ago
SBCL has save-lisp-and-die. The binaries are big though. LispWorks will give you smaller binaries, but it costs money.
- mark_l_watson 3y ago
  When you build SBCL from source, enable the compressed heaps option. Then when you create an app with save-lisp-and-die, you get a fairly small app even without having a treeshaker to remove unused code.
- vindarel 3y ago
  My web app with dozens of dependencies is ±35MB, using SBCL core compression. So that's heavier than Rust, lighter than Deno, maybe in par with Go when the application grows. It starts up in 0.4s, without compression it does in 0.01s. https://lispcookbook.github.io/cl-cookbook/scripting.html#building-a-smaller-binary-with-sbcls-core-compression https://lispcookbook.github.io/cl-cookbook/scripting.html#bu...