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For context, 75,518 EUR is $81,014. So if you're a software engineer making $200k, you're paying 37% on the first $81,014, or $30,000, and then 50% on the remai

For context, 75,518 EUR is $81,014. So if you're a software engineer making $200k, you're paying 37% on the first $81,014, or $30,000, and then 50% on the remaining $118,986, or $60,000. For a grand total of $90k on your $200k salary. Oof. In a modern society, with modern technology, why does the government demand ownership of 30-50% of the value that people generate? That's an enormous amount of free labor.

bojan 3y ago
It's not a good example as almost no-one has a salary that high. For software engineers you're looking at say 90-100K as an average maximum, with vast majority earning less than that. Edit to cover your edit: it's certainly not free labour, I happily pay my taxes because I believe I'm getting quiet something in return.
- pierat 3y ago
  If we're paying 'social democracy sized taxes', you damn straight I demand social democracy policies. But nope, we just get "sell more weapons to Israel and Ukraine", and more class warfare.
- throwaway49849 3y ago
  It is free labor. You giving your income to the government is equivalent to doing free work. And of course, some level of that is required. I'm not anti-tax, I'm anti wasteful tax. And to my mind, requiring 30%-50% of everyones created value, just to maintain society, is enormously wasteful. There is no way in hell an efficient society actually requires that level of income tax of everyone.
  - sofixa 3y ago
    > There is no way in hell an efficient society actually requires that level of income tax of everyone If there's no way in hell you can sure back up that claim with sources? I personally cannot think of a single country with what I would consider to be a somewhat efficient society that has a significantly lower tax rate. On the contrary, as established upthread, in the US which many Americans pride themselves on being low tax, the effective tax rate is not far off, and American society is drastically less efficient or comfortable than e.g. Dutch one.
    - throwaway49849 3y ago
      The burden of proof is on the people claiming that level of taxation is required in the first place. If taxes need to be that high, its on high tax proponents to justify it, not on everyone else to justify why we shouldn't raise them higher. If you stop to think about it, there are only 3 possibilities: 1) Taxes are perfectly calibrated to exactly what they need to be. 2) Taxes are less than they need to be. 3) Taxes are more than they need to be. Perfect calibration is nearly impossible. So that leaves 2 and 3. Which do you think is more likely of a corruption-prone organization that takes income through the implicit threat of physical violence?
      - bojan 3y ago
        > The burden of proof is on the people claiming that level of taxation is required in the first place The proof is there and it's called the annual budget of the country. As far as I know it's public information, not that anyone ever bothers to look at it (and rightfully so - we are paying via taxes people to look at it, and another group of people to control it).
        throwaway49849 3y ago
        The existence of a budget is NOT proof that the expenditures in the budget are priced accurately. If it was proof, then there would never be instances of companies defrauding the taxpayer through government contracts.
      - dhc02 3y ago
        I think this a great frame to examine taxes though: Are taxes perfect, too high, or too low? Now that we have the question, how to we decide the answer? I think there are several possibilities, but one that comes to mind is happiness. A subjective and flawed metric to be sure, but a metric all the same. Thankfully, we do not have to resign ourselves to thought experiments with no opportunity for real data collection, as in "Would the average US citizen be happier or less happy if taxes were 10% lower?" We don't even have to settle for logical exercises such as you pose here: "What is more likely, that corruption inevitably makes more government worse than less government, or vice versa?" Instead, we can examine the beautifully diverse set of data-rich, large scale experiments known as sovereign nations to find how well taxation correlates to happiness. And voila, your criticism of the article is an argument in favor of the article.
- piafraus 3y ago
  https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/software-engineer-salary-SRCH_KO0,17.htm https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/software-engineer-salary-... > The estimated total pay for a Software Engineer is $140,779 per year in the United States area, with an average salary of $118,761 per year. These numbers represent the median, which is the midpoint of the ranges from our proprietary Total Pay Estimate model and based on salaries collected from our users. The estimated additional pay is $22,017 per year. Additional pay could include cash bonus, commission, tips, and profit sharing. The "Most Likely Range" represents values that exist within the 25th and 75th percentile of all pay data available for this role
  - bojan 3y ago
    Yeah, but we were taking about the Dutch tax system, that applies to the income made in the Netherlands.
- abyesilyurt 3y ago
  This is wrong. I am relatively at the beginning of my career and already reached the said max. Median is probably much less, but the max is also much higher.
renewiltord 3y ago
For comparison, in California if you're making $1m W-2 income, you'll lose $470k to total taxes (Federal+State+FICA). The difference is not that huge. The difference is what you get for that 47%. Go higher and there's a 1% extra mental health services tax.
- jeffbee 3y ago
  Is this including federal? State income taxes are nowhere near that high in California.
  - renewiltord 3y ago
    Yes, edited to clarify.

bojan 3y ago

It's not a good example as almost no-one has a salary that high. For software engineers you're looking at say 90-100K as an average maximum, with vast majority earning less than that. Edit to cover your edit: it's certainly not free labour, I happily pay my taxes because I believe I'm getting quiet something in return.

pierat 3y ago
If we're paying 'social democracy sized taxes', you damn straight I demand social democracy policies. But nope, we just get "sell more weapons to Israel and Ukraine", and more class warfare.
throwaway49849 3y ago
It is free labor. You giving your income to the government is equivalent to doing free work. And of course, some level of that is required. I'm not anti-tax, I'm anti wasteful tax. And to my mind, requiring 30%-50% of everyones created value, just to maintain society, is enormously wasteful. There is no way in hell an efficient society actually requires that level of income tax of everyone.
- sofixa 3y ago
  > There is no way in hell an efficient society actually requires that level of income tax of everyone If there's no way in hell you can sure back up that claim with sources? I personally cannot think of a single country with what I would consider to be a somewhat efficient society that has a significantly lower tax rate. On the contrary, as established upthread, in the US which many Americans pride themselves on being low tax, the effective tax rate is not far off, and American society is drastically less efficient or comfortable than e.g. Dutch one.
  - throwaway49849 3y ago
    The burden of proof is on the people claiming that level of taxation is required in the first place. If taxes need to be that high, its on high tax proponents to justify it, not on everyone else to justify why we shouldn't raise them higher. If you stop to think about it, there are only 3 possibilities: 1) Taxes are perfectly calibrated to exactly what they need to be. 2) Taxes are less than they need to be. 3) Taxes are more than they need to be. Perfect calibration is nearly impossible. So that leaves 2 and 3. Which do you think is more likely of a corruption-prone organization that takes income through the implicit threat of physical violence?
    - bojan 3y ago
      > The burden of proof is on the people claiming that level of taxation is required in the first place The proof is there and it's called the annual budget of the country. As far as I know it's public information, not that anyone ever bothers to look at it (and rightfully so - we are paying via taxes people to look at it, and another group of people to control it).
      - throwaway49849 3y ago
        The existence of a budget is NOT proof that the expenditures in the budget are priced accurately. If it was proof, then there would never be instances of companies defrauding the taxpayer through government contracts.
    - dhc02 3y ago
      I think this a great frame to examine taxes though: Are taxes perfect, too high, or too low? Now that we have the question, how to we decide the answer? I think there are several possibilities, but one that comes to mind is happiness. A subjective and flawed metric to be sure, but a metric all the same. Thankfully, we do not have to resign ourselves to thought experiments with no opportunity for real data collection, as in "Would the average US citizen be happier or less happy if taxes were 10% lower?" We don't even have to settle for logical exercises such as you pose here: "What is more likely, that corruption inevitably makes more government worse than less government, or vice versa?" Instead, we can examine the beautifully diverse set of data-rich, large scale experiments known as sovereign nations to find how well taxation correlates to happiness. And voila, your criticism of the article is an argument in favor of the article.
piafraus 3y ago
https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/software-engineer-salary-SRCH_KO0,17.htm https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/software-engineer-salary-... > The estimated total pay for a Software Engineer is $140,779 per year in the United States area, with an average salary of $118,761 per year. These numbers represent the median, which is the midpoint of the ranges from our proprietary Total Pay Estimate model and based on salaries collected from our users. The estimated additional pay is $22,017 per year. Additional pay could include cash bonus, commission, tips, and profit sharing. The "Most Likely Range" represents values that exist within the 25th and 75th percentile of all pay data available for this role
- bojan 3y ago
  Yeah, but we were taking about the Dutch tax system, that applies to the income made in the Netherlands.
abyesilyurt 3y ago
This is wrong. I am relatively at the beginning of my career and already reached the said max. Median is probably much less, but the max is also much higher.

renewiltord 3y ago

For comparison, in California if you're making $1m W-2 income, you'll lose $470k to total taxes (Federal+State+FICA). The difference is not that huge. The difference is what you get for that 47%. Go higher and there's a 1% extra mental health services tax.

jeffbee 3y ago
Is this including federal? State income taxes are nowhere near that high in California.
- renewiltord 3y ago
  Yes, edited to clarify.