8 ms·

"What made you want to switch to the employee-owned model?" "I came up here to study the Bible, and the Bible says to do unto others as you would have them do

"What made you want to switch to the employee-owned model?" "I came up here to study the Bible, and the Bible says to do unto others as you would have them do unto you. And so there’s an element of how you treat people that impressed me. And sharing in the profit, sharing in the company to make things more fair and more benevolent impressed me, and I felt strongly about it." source: https://www.pdxmonthly.com/eat-and-drink/2023/02/bobs-red-mill-whole-grain-portland-bob-moore-interview https://www.pdxmonthly.com/eat-and-drink/2023/02/bobs-red-mi... It's always interesting to me to see how Christianity intersects with capitalism.

hyggetrold 3y ago
> It's always interesting to me to see how Christianity intersects with capitalism. Reminds me of a conversation I had with a Danish person, in reference to their welfare system: "some call it socialism - in Denmark we call it Christianity."
- UncleOxidant 3y ago
  It seems likely that Socialism would not exist without Christianity. We know that the early Christians were essentially communist - they owned everything in common. Christianity taught that wealth should not be hoarded but used to improve people's lives in community. That every person is created in the image of God and thus has value no matter what they can (or cannot) do - meaning that disabled and old people had just as much right to live as anyone else. Now the dominant American expression of Christianity (Evangelicalism) teaches that socialism is some kind of evil and has politically aligned itself with the owner class.
  - azinman2 3y ago
    That’s because it got wrapped up in right wing politics. It used to be evangelicals were equally likely from both parties. Then Regan courted them and the rest is history.
    - UncleOxidant 3y ago
      Indeed. Jimmy Carter was (is) an Evangelical. They turned their back on their own to go after Reagan.
    - QuercusMax 3y ago
      Way earlier than that - once Constantine claimed to have seen a cross and heard God saying "In hoc signo vinces" (Under this sign you will conquer), Christianity was forever connected with Empire.
  - tekla 3y ago
    > It seems likely that Socialism would not exist without Christianity. I may be drunk, but I can't believe this argument is being made I was not aware that Christianity had some sort of monopoly of "be nice".
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
- ren_engineer 3y ago
  In the US socialism/communism got tied to the state atheism of the Soviets and China which is why there is the political divide
akira2501 3y ago
> It's always interesting to me to see how Christianity intersects with capitalism. The parable of the three talents is pretty instructive. It is considered a good work to run a business and employ people, to put them to useful work, and to pay them a fair wage so that they may raise a family.
- Der_Einzige 3y ago
  I always go back to this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_and_the_rich_young_man https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_and_the_rich_young_man "Jesus looked at him and said, "How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of heaven! Indeed, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven." Luke 18:8-18:30 The biblical writers could not have been more clear on this topic. Prosperity theology is heresy.
  - akira2501 3y ago
    Is Jesus saying earning money is bad or that hoarding it is bad? If you earn a lot of money and give to charity, take care of your community, and spend it for the betterment of your neighbors does this make it hard to get into heaven? Jesus speaks in parables for a reason.
    - throwanem 3y ago
      Individual behavior notwithstanding, prosperity theology is exactly about hoarding wealth [1]: > When deconstructed, there is a great deal in the doctrines and practices of the movement, which concurs with Wade Clark Roof’s view that North American ‘supply-side spirituality’ has always carried the assumption that the individual is entitled to an endless supply of material satisfactions. What largesse its individual adherents may - and, under their own rule, may not! - distribute, detracts nothing from the school's focus on worldly acquisitiveness. The state of their souls is a matter between them and what they worship. Having had firsthand opportunity to observe their behavior as well as their teaching, I have not in either sense seen them particularly interested in following the examples Christ gave and set. What they are doing is attempting to collapse the parable, and have the riches of heaven while they live on earth. If there is a hell, this will land them there. [1] https://doi.org/10.1080%2F713676038 https://doi.org/10.1080%2F713676038
legitster 3y ago
The earliest corporations were created by monasteries as a way of pooling collective resources without requiring heredity bonds or government enforcement. Fast forward to the enlightenment and new understanding of universal human rights implies that all people (not just monarchs) should have rights to property including ownership stakes of enterprises. And that the actions of enterprises should be overseen by boards. Our modern idea that prices should be publicly posted and fair, and that losses should be born by businesses was created out of Quaker practices of equality.
- SantalBlush 3y ago
  >was created out of Quaker practices of equality If you have a link to some reading material about this, I'd love to check it out.
  - legitster 3y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_tag https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_tag > "The Pennsylvania Quakers" "honest price" was institutionalized in 1874 by John Wanamaker, when he opened his eponymous department store in Philadelphia. A renowned innovator of the highest integrity, Wanamaker was the first retailer to offer money-back guarantees. He also invented the price tag: "A devout Christian, he believed that if everyone was equal before God, then everyone should be equal before price." Before Wanamaker's, every purchase was open to a haggle."
    - SantalBlush 3y ago
      Thanks, this gives me a starting point to find out more about it. Very interesting!
UncleOxidant 3y ago
> It's always interesting to me to see how Christianity intersects with capitalism. Indeed. There are many different Christian views on capitalism ranging from being outright anti-capitalism to the prosperity gospel which encourages it's adherents to get rich (and views riches as a sign of God's blessing - this is why that particular group could overlook so much of Trump's seemingly unchristian actions and values - they figured he's rich so he must be blessed by God). Bob's Christian philosophy seems to have been somewhere between those two extremes. He definitely didn't view wealth as something to be hoarded, he used it to help lift up his workers and his community.
- svieira 3y ago
  Catholic doctrine on the issue sounds pretty close to Bob's - see Rerum Novarum [1], Quadragesimo Anno [2], Populorum Progressio [3], Centesimus Annus [4], Caritas in Veritate [5], and Fratelli Tutti [6] for various expressions of the doctrine over the modern era. Or, if you want a shorter version see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_destination_of_goods https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_destination_of_goods [1]: https://www.vatican.va/content/leo-xiii/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_l-xiii_enc_15051891_rerum-novarum.html https://www.vatican.va/content/leo-xiii/en/encyclicals/docum... [2]: https://www.vatican.va/content/pius-xi/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xi_enc_19310515_quadragesimo-anno.html https://www.vatican.va/content/pius-xi/en/encyclicals/docume... [3]: https://www.vatican.va/content/paul-vi/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-vi_enc_26031967_populorum.html https://www.vatican.va/content/paul-vi/en/encyclicals/docume... [4]: https://www.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_01051991_centesimus-annus.html https://www.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/encyclicals/d... [5]: https://www.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xvi_enc_20090629_caritas-in-veritate.html https://www.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/en/encyclicals/d... [6]: https://www.vatican.va/content/francesco/en/encyclicals/documents/papa-francesco_20201003_enciclica-fratelli-tutti.html https://www.vatican.va/content/francesco/en/encyclicals/docu...
deleted 3y ago
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hyggetrold 3y ago

> It's always interesting to me to see how Christianity intersects with capitalism. Reminds me of a conversation I had with a Danish person, in reference to their welfare system: "some call it socialism - in Denmark we call it Christianity."

UncleOxidant 3y ago
It seems likely that Socialism would not exist without Christianity. We know that the early Christians were essentially communist - they owned everything in common. Christianity taught that wealth should not be hoarded but used to improve people's lives in community. That every person is created in the image of God and thus has value no matter what they can (or cannot) do - meaning that disabled and old people had just as much right to live as anyone else. Now the dominant American expression of Christianity (Evangelicalism) teaches that socialism is some kind of evil and has politically aligned itself with the owner class.
- azinman2 3y ago
  That’s because it got wrapped up in right wing politics. It used to be evangelicals were equally likely from both parties. Then Regan courted them and the rest is history.
  - UncleOxidant 3y ago
    Indeed. Jimmy Carter was (is) an Evangelical. They turned their back on their own to go after Reagan.
  - QuercusMax 3y ago
    Way earlier than that - once Constantine claimed to have seen a cross and heard God saying "In hoc signo vinces" (Under this sign you will conquer), Christianity was forever connected with Empire.
- tekla 3y ago
  > It seems likely that Socialism would not exist without Christianity. I may be drunk, but I can't believe this argument is being made I was not aware that Christianity had some sort of monopoly of "be nice".
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
ren_engineer 3y ago
In the US socialism/communism got tied to the state atheism of the Soviets and China which is why there is the political divide

akira2501 3y ago

> It's always interesting to me to see how Christianity intersects with capitalism. The parable of the three talents is pretty instructive. It is considered a good work to run a business and employ people, to put them to useful work, and to pay them a fair wage so that they may raise a family.

Der_Einzige 3y ago
I always go back to this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_and_the_rich_young_man https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_and_the_rich_young_man "Jesus looked at him and said, "How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of heaven! Indeed, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven." Luke 18:8-18:30 The biblical writers could not have been more clear on this topic. Prosperity theology is heresy.
- akira2501 3y ago
  Is Jesus saying earning money is bad or that hoarding it is bad? If you earn a lot of money and give to charity, take care of your community, and spend it for the betterment of your neighbors does this make it hard to get into heaven? Jesus speaks in parables for a reason.
  - throwanem 3y ago
    Individual behavior notwithstanding, prosperity theology is exactly about hoarding wealth [1]: > When deconstructed, there is a great deal in the doctrines and practices of the movement, which concurs with Wade Clark Roof’s view that North American ‘supply-side spirituality’ has always carried the assumption that the individual is entitled to an endless supply of material satisfactions. What largesse its individual adherents may - and, under their own rule, may not! - distribute, detracts nothing from the school's focus on worldly acquisitiveness. The state of their souls is a matter between them and what they worship. Having had firsthand opportunity to observe their behavior as well as their teaching, I have not in either sense seen them particularly interested in following the examples Christ gave and set. What they are doing is attempting to collapse the parable, and have the riches of heaven while they live on earth. If there is a hell, this will land them there. [1] https://doi.org/10.1080%2F713676038 https://doi.org/10.1080%2F713676038

legitster 3y ago

The earliest corporations were created by monasteries as a way of pooling collective resources without requiring heredity bonds or government enforcement. Fast forward to the enlightenment and new understanding of universal human rights implies that all people (not just monarchs) should have rights to property including ownership stakes of enterprises. And that the actions of enterprises should be overseen by boards. Our modern idea that prices should be publicly posted and fair, and that losses should be born by businesses was created out of Quaker practices of equality.

SantalBlush 3y ago
>was created out of Quaker practices of equality If you have a link to some reading material about this, I'd love to check it out.
- legitster 3y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_tag https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_tag > "The Pennsylvania Quakers" "honest price" was institutionalized in 1874 by John Wanamaker, when he opened his eponymous department store in Philadelphia. A renowned innovator of the highest integrity, Wanamaker was the first retailer to offer money-back guarantees. He also invented the price tag: "A devout Christian, he believed that if everyone was equal before God, then everyone should be equal before price." Before Wanamaker's, every purchase was open to a haggle."
  - SantalBlush 3y ago
    Thanks, this gives me a starting point to find out more about it. Very interesting!

UncleOxidant 3y ago

> It's always interesting to me to see how Christianity intersects with capitalism. Indeed. There are many different Christian views on capitalism ranging from being outright anti-capitalism to the prosperity gospel which encourages it's adherents to get rich (and views riches as a sign of God's blessing - this is why that particular group could overlook so much of Trump's seemingly unchristian actions and values - they figured he's rich so he must be blessed by God). Bob's Christian philosophy seems to have been somewhere between those two extremes. He definitely didn't view wealth as something to be hoarded, he used it to help lift up his workers and his community.

svieira 3y ago
Catholic doctrine on the issue sounds pretty close to Bob's - see Rerum Novarum [1], Quadragesimo Anno [2], Populorum Progressio [3], Centesimus Annus [4], Caritas in Veritate [5], and Fratelli Tutti [6] for various expressions of the doctrine over the modern era. Or, if you want a shorter version see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_destination_of_goods https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_destination_of_goods [1]: https://www.vatican.va/content/leo-xiii/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_l-xiii_enc_15051891_rerum-novarum.html https://www.vatican.va/content/leo-xiii/en/encyclicals/docum... [2]: https://www.vatican.va/content/pius-xi/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xi_enc_19310515_quadragesimo-anno.html https://www.vatican.va/content/pius-xi/en/encyclicals/docume... [3]: https://www.vatican.va/content/paul-vi/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-vi_enc_26031967_populorum.html https://www.vatican.va/content/paul-vi/en/encyclicals/docume... [4]: https://www.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_01051991_centesimus-annus.html https://www.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/encyclicals/d... [5]: https://www.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xvi_enc_20090629_caritas-in-veritate.html https://www.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/en/encyclicals/d... [6]: https://www.vatican.va/content/francesco/en/encyclicals/documents/papa-francesco_20201003_enciclica-fratelli-tutti.html https://www.vatican.va/content/francesco/en/encyclicals/docu...

deleted 3y ago

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