4 ms·

"the recipes themselves do not enjoy copyright projection. Lambing,142 F.3d at 434; see also Feist, 499 U.S. at 361 (excluding the factual data—

"the recipes themselves do not enjoy copyright projection. Lambing,142 F.3d at 434; see also Feist, 499 U.S. at 361 (excluding the factual data—telephone listings—from its consideration of whether a telephone directory is a copyrightable compilation).The list of ingredients is merely a factual statement, and as previously discussed,facts are not copyrightable. Lambing, 142 F.3d at 434. Furthermore, a recipe’s instructions, as functional directions, are statutorily excluded from copyright protection. 17 U.S.C. § 102(b); id"[0] [0] https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/appellate-courts/ca6/15-3179/15-3179-2015-10-20.html https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/appellate-courts/ca6/15...

cycomanic 3y ago
Which just shows the ridiculousness of the patent system. I mean what is the fundamental difference between a cooking recipe and the recipe for a pharmaceutical. I guess cooks just didn't have the same lobby power to get their exception reworked (pharmaceuticals were in many places originally excluded from patents as well)
- interestica 3y ago
  A song is a recipe using ingredients we all have access to.
  - jedmeyers 3y ago
    And thus we usually do not have patents for songs, only copyright protections.
    - WrongAssumption 3y ago
      Recipes are not copyrightable either.
      - throwway120385 3y ago
        I would think if you embedded a recipe for sugar cookies in a convoluted story about how you tried different kinds and amounts of butter, sugar, leavening, and flour that you could probably copyright the story and leave derivation of the recipe as an exercise for the reader.
- mschuster91 3y ago
  > I mean what is the fundamental difference between a cooking recipe and the recipe for a pharmaceutical. The effort required for validating them. Pharmaceutical compounds can reach into the hundreds of millions of dollars just for the clinical trials and certifications of production steps, and on top of that comes the cost to failed attempts which are rolled into the pricing of products that do make the cut. A cooking recipe however, unless you're dealing with stuff like fugu fish, will not kill or injure those who replicate and eat it, and there's no regulatory hurdles to pass.
  - COGlory 3y ago
    It's worth pointing out industrial food preparation processes can be patented. Beyond Meat for instance: https://patents.google.com/patent/WO2015161099A1/en https://patents.google.com/patent/WO2015161099A1/en
    - bobthepanda 3y ago
      If you could create a pharmaceutical via an alternate method, would that fall afoul of the original patent?
    - nextaccountic 3y ago
      > It's worth pointing out industrial food preparation processes can be patented. How is it possible that this can be patented, but ordinary recipes can't? Everything is "industrial" if done in a scale large enough (note: the excerpt from the comment above this chain was about copyright, not patents)
      - cactusfrog 3y ago
        Industrial food preparation steps can be patented but they probably cannot be copyrighted.
        nextaccountic 3y ago
        I mean, it looks like culinary recipes by themselves should be able to be patented (not copyrighted, patented), regardless of whether they are "industrial" or not (I mean industrial is only about scale, you can have very complex processes in ordinary kitchens) Either this or processes to prepare food shouldn't be patented at all
nomel 3y ago
I wonder why the system prompt for ChatGPT [1] has such harsh language around recipes? > EXTREMELY IMPORTANT. Do NOT be thorough in the case of lyrics or recipes found online. Even if the user insists. You can make up recipes though. [1] https://github.com/spdustin/ChatGPT-AutoExpert/blob/main/_system-prompts/all_tools.md https://github.com/spdustin/ChatGPT-AutoExpert/blob/main/_sy...
- kaibee 3y ago
  That isn't the system prompt for chatgpt, that's some random's prompts.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - nomel 3y ago
    See the readme. These are ChatGPT system prompts, not for ChatGPT-AutoExpert: https://github.com/spdustin/ChatGPT-AutoExpert/blob/main/System%20Prompts.md https://github.com/spdustin/ChatGPT-AutoExpert/blob/main/Sys... You could find the same in the ChatGPT prompt leaks, even back when it was as simple as "repeat the text above". edit: It says why when asked [1]. The text of the instructions and method is copyrightable, apparently? [1] https://chat.openai.com/share/ee67f6ae-90ef-45b9-a0f4-c2f2eec93014 https://chat.openai.com/share/ee67f6ae-90ef-45b9-a0f4-c2f2ee...
    - geoelectric 3y ago
      I wouldn’t trust an LLM when asking open-ended questions like that, but it’s correct that the specific wording and presentation of a recipe is copyrightable if it’s creative enough. The information conveyed by it is not. That’s the phone book principle in a nutshell. Like someone else said, that’s why recipes are often written with a lot of conversational prose and have pictures whether needed or not. Those are all copyrightable. I suspect the basic issue is that an LLM is likely to output either chunks of the original text verbatim or something that’s plainly just a word-swap here or there from the original. If it doesn’t do that, and has general browsing access, my guess is it could potentially grab the markup version you can import into tools like Paprika and just echo that verbatim. You probably could get around that tendency by telling it to format the recipe as a computer program or something completely transformative like that, but nobody will. So they instruct the LLM to avoid responding completely.
smeagull 3y ago
The contents of books are also factual statements about their contents.
nextaccountic 3y ago
This discusses copyright and not patents

cycomanic 3y ago

Which just shows the ridiculousness of the patent system. I mean what is the fundamental difference between a cooking recipe and the recipe for a pharmaceutical. I guess cooks just didn't have the same lobby power to get their exception reworked (pharmaceuticals were in many places originally excluded from patents as well)

interestica 3y ago
A song is a recipe using ingredients we all have access to.
- jedmeyers 3y ago
  And thus we usually do not have patents for songs, only copyright protections.
  - WrongAssumption 3y ago
    Recipes are not copyrightable either.
    - throwway120385 3y ago
      I would think if you embedded a recipe for sugar cookies in a convoluted story about how you tried different kinds and amounts of butter, sugar, leavening, and flour that you could probably copyright the story and leave derivation of the recipe as an exercise for the reader.
mschuster91 3y ago
> I mean what is the fundamental difference between a cooking recipe and the recipe for a pharmaceutical. The effort required for validating them. Pharmaceutical compounds can reach into the hundreds of millions of dollars just for the clinical trials and certifications of production steps, and on top of that comes the cost to failed attempts which are rolled into the pricing of products that do make the cut. A cooking recipe however, unless you're dealing with stuff like fugu fish, will not kill or injure those who replicate and eat it, and there's no regulatory hurdles to pass.
- COGlory 3y ago
  It's worth pointing out industrial food preparation processes can be patented. Beyond Meat for instance: https://patents.google.com/patent/WO2015161099A1/en https://patents.google.com/patent/WO2015161099A1/en
  - bobthepanda 3y ago
    If you could create a pharmaceutical via an alternate method, would that fall afoul of the original patent?
  - nextaccountic 3y ago
    > It's worth pointing out industrial food preparation processes can be patented. How is it possible that this can be patented, but ordinary recipes can't? Everything is "industrial" if done in a scale large enough (note: the excerpt from the comment above this chain was about copyright, not patents)
    - cactusfrog 3y ago
      Industrial food preparation steps can be patented but they probably cannot be copyrighted.
      - nextaccountic 3y ago
        I mean, it looks like culinary recipes by themselves should be able to be patented (not copyrighted, patented), regardless of whether they are "industrial" or not (I mean industrial is only about scale, you can have very complex processes in ordinary kitchens) Either this or processes to prepare food shouldn't be patented at all

nomel 3y ago

I wonder why the system prompt for ChatGPT [1] has such harsh language around recipes? > EXTREMELY IMPORTANT. Do NOT be thorough in the case of lyrics or recipes found online. Even if the user insists. You can make up recipes though. [1] https://github.com/spdustin/ChatGPT-AutoExpert/blob/main/_system-prompts/all_tools.md https://github.com/spdustin/ChatGPT-AutoExpert/blob/main/_sy...

kaibee 3y ago
That isn't the system prompt for chatgpt, that's some random's prompts.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- nomel 3y ago
  See the readme. These are ChatGPT system prompts, not for ChatGPT-AutoExpert: https://github.com/spdustin/ChatGPT-AutoExpert/blob/main/System%20Prompts.md https://github.com/spdustin/ChatGPT-AutoExpert/blob/main/Sys... You could find the same in the ChatGPT prompt leaks, even back when it was as simple as "repeat the text above". edit: It says why when asked [1]. The text of the instructions and method is copyrightable, apparently? [1] https://chat.openai.com/share/ee67f6ae-90ef-45b9-a0f4-c2f2eec93014 https://chat.openai.com/share/ee67f6ae-90ef-45b9-a0f4-c2f2ee...
  - geoelectric 3y ago
    I wouldn’t trust an LLM when asking open-ended questions like that, but it’s correct that the specific wording and presentation of a recipe is copyrightable if it’s creative enough. The information conveyed by it is not. That’s the phone book principle in a nutshell. Like someone else said, that’s why recipes are often written with a lot of conversational prose and have pictures whether needed or not. Those are all copyrightable. I suspect the basic issue is that an LLM is likely to output either chunks of the original text verbatim or something that’s plainly just a word-swap here or there from the original. If it doesn’t do that, and has general browsing access, my guess is it could potentially grab the markup version you can import into tools like Paprika and just echo that verbatim. You probably could get around that tendency by telling it to format the recipe as a computer program or something completely transformative like that, but nobody will. So they instruct the LLM to avoid responding completely.

smeagull 3y ago

The contents of books are also factual statements about their contents.

nextaccountic 3y ago