5 ms·

I wonder if everyone but the top two is starting to regret the proprietary batteries. It would be a break from tradition, and potentially incompatible, but the

by amluto 3y ago

I wonder if everyone but the top two is starting to regret the proprietary batteries. It would be a break from tradition, and potentially incompatible, but the other manufacturers could adopt a joint battery standard to try to attract users who aren’t willing to go all in on a single system.

radlad 3y ago
I have video lights with battery adapters for at least three or four different battery systems. Surely power tools could do something similar?
Dalewyn 3y ago
A standard battery interface doesn't change the sad reality that third-party batteries are all, without exception, bullshit wastes of money due to being practically DOA. I've always needed to buy first-party batteries to replace worn out ones, and if I'm doing that it doesn't make any difference to me if their interface is proprietary or standard. Sell me batteries worth a damn, then we can talk about standards.
- lukan 3y ago
  Not my experience, but I think the main argument here is, that every time you want a new tool, you will have to get one from the brand you already have, or also buy new batteries. That annoys me already.
  - bombcar 3y ago
    It is much more annoying for a home user than for a professional user. Once you have two battery types, you might as well have a few. People seem to be quite fine with M12 and M18, which are only compatible on the charger itself. It is much less important to have access to multiple brands now compared to 20 years ago, as most of the brands have acceptable tools across the line even if they're not all the "best in class".
- bradstewart 3y ago
  But it would mean I don't have to buy the same brand of every tool.
- amluto 3y ago
  > A standard battery interface doesn't change the sad reality that third-party batteries are all, without exception, bullshit wastes of money due to being practically DOA. But that doesn’t matter! If, say, Makita, Bosch and Hilti started using standard, interchangeable batteries, you could use Makita, Bosch, or Hilti batteries in tools by any of the three brands. No need for third party batteries.
wlesieutre 3y ago
The batteries are a selling point for Ryobi too, they’ve maintained compatibility with one 18v design since like 1990 so you don’t wonder “are they going to replace this battery design with an incompatible one next year?” I think the companies that wouldn’t like the proprietary are ones trying to make a new entry into the market, since you have to convince someone your tool is worth adding a new battery/charger to the garage while knowing there’s not a full system of everything that could use it. If there were a standard battery it’d be easier to say “we’re a company that only makes a circular saw.”
- myself248 3y ago
  Yeah, I'm on the Ryobi system for exactly that reason, and still using some of my original blue tools from the 90s. They just refuse to quit, and with modern batteries they perform better than ever. It's also the broadest system, with everything from drills and saws, to lights and fans, to soldering irons and dremel-like tools. Some of their stuff isn't as compact or as full-featured as Milwaukee, and this is shitty artificial segmentation on the part of their shared parent company, but for the most part it's all I've needed. (The new HP drill with the metal chuck and anti-backdriving clutch finally answers my chief complaint about all Ryobi drills before that.) But, NOBODY, on any battery platform, or even all of them put together, makes EVERYTHING I want, and I end up doing a fair amount of hacking. Ryobi 18v is a forgiving system, with the BMS integrated into the batteries, so you can just draw power and do whatever. I made my own soldering iron long before Ryobi released their own. I've had USB outputs since long before Ryobi released their own. I've cobbled together a 100W USB-C one now, while the official ones top out at 45W. I've been using those batteries to drive an electric cooler/freezer since long before Ryobi released their own. If I hypothetically had universal batteries that would fit any tool from any brand, would that make it better? Not significantly, I don't think. Other brands don't seem to offer significantly more, or significantly earlier. If I want a lot more or a lot earlier, I have to do it myself. A universal battery would've given me an anti-backdriving drill earlier, and I could have the Makita microwave, that's legitimately cool but it's also ungodly expensive and I wouldn't buy one even if I was already on the Makita battery platform. DeWalt's radio is probably nicer but I don't even use the Ryobi radio I've got, so I don't think that matters. A universal battery WOULD be great, just for competition's sake, but in practice I don't think it would change much for me. I'm already basically there, through a combination of a very versatile base platform that goes most places, and the ability to chop things up and make new stuff when I want to go even further.
unwind 3y ago
Bosch professional tools ("blue") are in a giant battery-sharing alliance with dozens of manufacturers nobody has heard of [1] because pro. Obviously Bosch DIY tools ("green") are in another alliance [2]. Much sharing, big convincing. [1]: https://www.ampshare.com/ https://www.ampshare.com/ [2]: https://www.powerforall-alliance.com/en/#technology https://www.powerforall-alliance.com/en/#technology
- 01HNNWZ0MV43FF 3y ago
  Figures. There is only one strategy: When you are small, cooperate, when you are big, pull up the ladder. These must be very small brands.
- namdnay 3y ago
  "battery-sharing alliance " -> hardly, it's just lots of niche toolmakers using bosch batteries
  - bombcar 3y ago
    This exists elsewhere - the local fire truck has some giant battery powered fan that uses Milwaukee batteries, but the fan isn't made by Milwaukee. (They also had M28 which I'd never seen in person).
tinix 3y ago
i have good luck with these: https://powuse.com/collections/cordless-power-tool-battery-adapter-converters https://powuse.com/collections/cordless-power-tool-battery-a... The company was responsive to support before ordering to ensure compatibility. The interfaces can be adapted... it's just voltage and all you have to do is step up or down.
- spott 3y ago
  > it's just voltage and all you have to do is step up or down. It isn't quite that easy. The high-output 18v batteries can dump over 100 Amps for short durations. Stepping that kind of power up or down isn't really possible in any consumer device. The good news is that Dewalt 20V and Milwaukee 18V are actually the same: they are both 5 li-ion cells. The no-load voltage of a li-ion cell is ~4V, the voltage under load is 3.6V. This is why you can use Milwaukee batteries on Dewalt devices and vice-versa.
  - bombcar 3y ago
    The other problem you can run into is some tools have the BMS in the battery, some have it in the tool. So some batteries protect themselves from being overdrawn, others do not. M18 batteries, for example, are dumb and will let you discharge them way too low where they won't take a charge anymore.
somerandomqaguy 3y ago
A lot of companies would end up competing against themselves. https://www.protoolreviews.com/power-tool-manufacturers-who-owns-them/ https://www.protoolreviews.com/power-tool-manufacturers-who-... <--these include all power tools, not just cordless. Kind of interesting to see who's actually related to who.
- bombcar 3y ago
  Sometimes the stars align and you get almost unintended compatibility - I wish that Craftsman tools could take Dewalt batteries.
latchkey 3y ago
Protip: there are adapter shims you can buy.

by amluto 3y ago

radlad 3y ago

I have video lights with battery adapters for at least three or four different battery systems. Surely power tools could do something similar?

Dalewyn 3y ago

A standard battery interface doesn't change the sad reality that third-party batteries are all, without exception, bullshit wastes of money due to being practically DOA. I've always needed to buy first-party batteries to replace worn out ones, and if I'm doing that it doesn't make any difference to me if their interface is proprietary or standard. Sell me batteries worth a damn, then we can talk about standards.

lukan 3y ago
Not my experience, but I think the main argument here is, that every time you want a new tool, you will have to get one from the brand you already have, or also buy new batteries. That annoys me already.
- bombcar 3y ago
  It is much more annoying for a home user than for a professional user. Once you have two battery types, you might as well have a few. People seem to be quite fine with M12 and M18, which are only compatible on the charger itself. It is much less important to have access to multiple brands now compared to 20 years ago, as most of the brands have acceptable tools across the line even if they're not all the "best in class".
bradstewart 3y ago
But it would mean I don't have to buy the same brand of every tool.
amluto 3y ago
> A standard battery interface doesn't change the sad reality that third-party batteries are all, without exception, bullshit wastes of money due to being practically DOA. But that doesn’t matter! If, say, Makita, Bosch and Hilti started using standard, interchangeable batteries, you could use Makita, Bosch, or Hilti batteries in tools by any of the three brands. No need for third party batteries.

wlesieutre 3y ago

The batteries are a selling point for Ryobi too, they’ve maintained compatibility with one 18v design since like 1990 so you don’t wonder “are they going to replace this battery design with an incompatible one next year?” I think the companies that wouldn’t like the proprietary are ones trying to make a new entry into the market, since you have to convince someone your tool is worth adding a new battery/charger to the garage while knowing there’s not a full system of everything that could use it. If there were a standard battery it’d be easier to say “we’re a company that only makes a circular saw.”

myself248 3y ago
Yeah, I'm on the Ryobi system for exactly that reason, and still using some of my original blue tools from the 90s. They just refuse to quit, and with modern batteries they perform better than ever. It's also the broadest system, with everything from drills and saws, to lights and fans, to soldering irons and dremel-like tools. Some of their stuff isn't as compact or as full-featured as Milwaukee, and this is shitty artificial segmentation on the part of their shared parent company, but for the most part it's all I've needed. (The new HP drill with the metal chuck and anti-backdriving clutch finally answers my chief complaint about all Ryobi drills before that.) But, NOBODY, on any battery platform, or even all of them put together, makes EVERYTHING I want, and I end up doing a fair amount of hacking. Ryobi 18v is a forgiving system, with the BMS integrated into the batteries, so you can just draw power and do whatever. I made my own soldering iron long before Ryobi released their own. I've had USB outputs since long before Ryobi released their own. I've cobbled together a 100W USB-C one now, while the official ones top out at 45W. I've been using those batteries to drive an electric cooler/freezer since long before Ryobi released their own. If I hypothetically had universal batteries that would fit any tool from any brand, would that make it better? Not significantly, I don't think. Other brands don't seem to offer significantly more, or significantly earlier. If I want a lot more or a lot earlier, I have to do it myself. A universal battery would've given me an anti-backdriving drill earlier, and I could have the Makita microwave, that's legitimately cool but it's also ungodly expensive and I wouldn't buy one even if I was already on the Makita battery platform. DeWalt's radio is probably nicer but I don't even use the Ryobi radio I've got, so I don't think that matters. A universal battery WOULD be great, just for competition's sake, but in practice I don't think it would change much for me. I'm already basically there, through a combination of a very versatile base platform that goes most places, and the ability to chop things up and make new stuff when I want to go even further.

unwind 3y ago

Bosch professional tools ("blue") are in a giant battery-sharing alliance with dozens of manufacturers nobody has heard of [1] because pro. Obviously Bosch DIY tools ("green") are in another alliance [2]. Much sharing, big convincing. [1]: https://www.ampshare.com/ https://www.ampshare.com/ [2]: https://www.powerforall-alliance.com/en/#technology https://www.powerforall-alliance.com/en/#technology

01HNNWZ0MV43FF 3y ago
Figures. There is only one strategy: When you are small, cooperate, when you are big, pull up the ladder. These must be very small brands.
namdnay 3y ago
"battery-sharing alliance " -> hardly, it's just lots of niche toolmakers using bosch batteries
- bombcar 3y ago
  This exists elsewhere - the local fire truck has some giant battery powered fan that uses Milwaukee batteries, but the fan isn't made by Milwaukee. (They also had M28 which I'd never seen in person).

tinix 3y ago

i have good luck with these: https://powuse.com/collections/cordless-power-tool-battery-adapter-converters https://powuse.com/collections/cordless-power-tool-battery-a... The company was responsive to support before ordering to ensure compatibility. The interfaces can be adapted... it's just voltage and all you have to do is step up or down.

spott 3y ago
> it's just voltage and all you have to do is step up or down. It isn't quite that easy. The high-output 18v batteries can dump over 100 Amps for short durations. Stepping that kind of power up or down isn't really possible in any consumer device. The good news is that Dewalt 20V and Milwaukee 18V are actually the same: they are both 5 li-ion cells. The no-load voltage of a li-ion cell is ~4V, the voltage under load is 3.6V. This is why you can use Milwaukee batteries on Dewalt devices and vice-versa.
- bombcar 3y ago
  The other problem you can run into is some tools have the BMS in the battery, some have it in the tool. So some batteries protect themselves from being overdrawn, others do not. M18 batteries, for example, are dumb and will let you discharge them way too low where they won't take a charge anymore.

somerandomqaguy 3y ago

A lot of companies would end up competing against themselves. https://www.protoolreviews.com/power-tool-manufacturers-who-owns-them/ https://www.protoolreviews.com/power-tool-manufacturers-who-... <--these include all power tools, not just cordless. Kind of interesting to see who's actually related to who.

bombcar 3y ago
Sometimes the stars align and you get almost unintended compatibility - I wish that Craftsman tools could take Dewalt batteries.

latchkey 3y ago

Protip: there are adapter shims you can buy.