7 ms·

Is there an exception for emergency purposes?

by eastbound 3y ago

mratsim 3y ago
When there is an emergency to break into a house, the police needs to get a mandate from a judge.
- gjsman-1000 3y ago
  Well, there is actually an exception to that too - the Police can break into any home, without a warrant, in the US, if they can prove they had reasonable cause to believe that there was imminent and immediate threat of bodily harm or death. If you are a police officer and see a guy clearly pointing a gun at someone else through the window, yes, you can break in if the circumstances warrant that.
  - 05 3y ago
    Or if you receive an anonymous call from a swatter..
  - JoshTriplett 3y ago
    The flip side of that is that if the police enter on that basis, any evidence they come across in the course of that action is going to be tainted and potentially thrown out of court, especially if that evidence wasn't in plain sight.
- _cenw 3y ago
  No, they don't. Many countries have the concept of "imminent danger", which allows police to skip the warrants. It's called "Gefahr im Verzug" in Germany, for instance.
- rtkwe 3y ago
  Depends on where you are. In the US there's the Exigent Circumstances exception to the warrant requirement. Not sure if the same theory has been included in EU countries but I would be surprised if it hadn't, a quick search didn't turn up much english language about it. https://www.ce9.uscourts.gov/jury-instructions/node/155 https://www.ce9.uscourts.gov/jury-instructions/node/155
- vdaea 3y ago
  That's not true at least in Spain. There's "In flagrante delicto" which means if the police suspects something going on they can kick your door down. It was used many times during the pandemic: when they suspected you were having too many people over at home, they acted. Unconstitutionally, mind you. The EU is not the utopia many think it is.
  - martimarkov 3y ago
    You’d need to define “unconstitutionally” as it seems if they have the right then it is constitutional
    - vdaea 3y ago
      The constitutional court of Spain ruled the state of alarm (a kind of state of emergency) that was used to prohibit gatherings during the pandemic was unconstitutional. But by then the damage was made of course.
      - denton-scratch 3y ago
        The constitutional court of Spain is an ultra-rightwing joke. Imprisoning Catalan nationalist politicians for calling for independence brought that court into disrepute. I'm not keen on written constitutions, or constitutional courts <cough US Supremes>.
        vdaea 3y ago
        Errr, that's not exactly what they did, as well as you know :-) In any case I hope we can agree that it's good that they said that restricting our constitutional right to free movement was illegal, even if it had no consequences for those who violated our basic rights so blatantly.
        denton-scratch 3y ago
        If I'm wrong about the constitutional court sentencing Catalan nationalist politicians to prison, that's not something I know; feel free to correct me. I don't know what that has to do with free movement, nor how that's related to the imprisoned politicians. FWIW, I don't accept the notion of "human rights" - there are in reality only those privileges that are actually granted. I would like it if there were some kind of universally-accepted set of rights; but only if they are congruent with my own views about what "rights" should look like.
nottorp 3y ago
If it's done right, it can't be subverted in case of "emergency" can it? If it's full of bugs, it simply doesn't matter.
- AJ007 3y ago
  The "e2e" concept that most are familiar with is basically fake: the provider is responsible for the client that does the encryption and decryption. Of course they can break it if forced. Software exploits are a separate matter and also easier to deal with when the end user isn't truly in control of the encryption (or easier if they don't know what they are doing.)
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - gjsman-1000 3y ago
    If the client is properly developed and secured, they cannot break it without shipping an update to that client to change its behavior - which then affects everyone.
    - guappa 3y ago
      I'm quite sure they can use the app store to push a targeted update just to some.
      - px43 3y ago
        Yes, an operating system that uses a compromised software supply chain is at risk of compromise, but that really has nothing to do with e2ee.
        shortsunblack 3y ago
        E2EE itself as a concept is ridiculous. The word was stolen from networking, end to end, and repurposed for an entirely different and non-sensical context to describe sth completely else. It has to do with "E2EE" because the biggest provided of it, Signal, pushes you to use 'compromised software supply chains' that are iOS and Play Store, evensofar as to spreading FUD about alternative distribution mechanisms, like APKs. That's why you have to go over yourself to find the APK of the App on Signal's website.
priprimer 3y ago
there’s only and opposing secret court mandating the opposite: publicly available encryption must be weakened on release
Quanttek 3y ago
I think that depends on what you mean: a general state of emergency or a specific situation where the police deem there to be an emergency (e.g. classic hidden bomb scenario) Regarding (2), the Court found that a statutory obligation to decrypt E2E-encrypted data upon (judicial) request to be disproportionate, but it could still be imagined that – if more narrowly construed – a law could be considered to be proportionate. But the Court does seem quite unwilling to entertain the idea of backdoors for E2E encryption. Regarding (1), the European Convention on Human Rights (ECHR) allows so-called derogations from certain rights in "time of war or other public emergency threatening the life of the nation" (Art 15 ECHR), insofar as they are necessary and the state of emergency has been properly declared. The right to privacy is such a right, so a State that faces an insurgency may declare a state of emergency and, as part of its emergency measures, could probably demand the decryption of E2E communications if it's necessary to fight the insurgency (e.g. it's a guerilla group using an E2E messenger) - but hard to judge in the abstract.
layer8 3y ago
Exceptional circumstances can warrant exceptional measures, but also require exceptional justification, for example by means of a juridical decision for the individual case (i.e., a judge issuing a warrant allowing the police to install and use a backdoor on a concrete individual).
- eastbound 3y ago
  Let’s just remind that “exceptional justifications” in Canada were “Truckers are protesting with honks in the middle of cities”, so not exactly a matter of national security and in the USA, NSA took it to mean “Any US or non-US citizen on US or non-US soil” (for national security letters).
steelframe 3y ago
> Is there an exception for emergency purposes? The problem is when the "emergency" is "the citizen may be engaged in political activities that are against the interests of the ruling party."
meindnoch 3y ago
Yes, in case of an emergency you can ask God to give you the prime factorization of 4096bit numbers.

Is there an exception for emergency purposes?

mratsim 3y ago

When there is an emergency to break into a house, the police needs to get a mandate from a judge.

gjsman-1000 3y ago
Well, there is actually an exception to that too - the Police can break into any home, without a warrant, in the US, if they can prove they had reasonable cause to believe that there was imminent and immediate threat of bodily harm or death. If you are a police officer and see a guy clearly pointing a gun at someone else through the window, yes, you can break in if the circumstances warrant that.
- 05 3y ago
  Or if you receive an anonymous call from a swatter..
- JoshTriplett 3y ago
  The flip side of that is that if the police enter on that basis, any evidence they come across in the course of that action is going to be tainted and potentially thrown out of court, especially if that evidence wasn't in plain sight.
_cenw 3y ago
No, they don't. Many countries have the concept of "imminent danger", which allows police to skip the warrants. It's called "Gefahr im Verzug" in Germany, for instance.
rtkwe 3y ago
Depends on where you are. In the US there's the Exigent Circumstances exception to the warrant requirement. Not sure if the same theory has been included in EU countries but I would be surprised if it hadn't, a quick search didn't turn up much english language about it. https://www.ce9.uscourts.gov/jury-instructions/node/155 https://www.ce9.uscourts.gov/jury-instructions/node/155
vdaea 3y ago
That's not true at least in Spain. There's "In flagrante delicto" which means if the police suspects something going on they can kick your door down. It was used many times during the pandemic: when they suspected you were having too many people over at home, they acted. Unconstitutionally, mind you. The EU is not the utopia many think it is.
- martimarkov 3y ago
  You’d need to define “unconstitutionally” as it seems if they have the right then it is constitutional
  - vdaea 3y ago
    The constitutional court of Spain ruled the state of alarm (a kind of state of emergency) that was used to prohibit gatherings during the pandemic was unconstitutional. But by then the damage was made of course.
    - denton-scratch 3y ago
      The constitutional court of Spain is an ultra-rightwing joke. Imprisoning Catalan nationalist politicians for calling for independence brought that court into disrepute. I'm not keen on written constitutions, or constitutional courts <cough US Supremes>.
      - vdaea 3y ago
        Errr, that's not exactly what they did, as well as you know :-) In any case I hope we can agree that it's good that they said that restricting our constitutional right to free movement was illegal, even if it had no consequences for those who violated our basic rights so blatantly.
        denton-scratch 3y ago
        If I'm wrong about the constitutional court sentencing Catalan nationalist politicians to prison, that's not something I know; feel free to correct me. I don't know what that has to do with free movement, nor how that's related to the imprisoned politicians. FWIW, I don't accept the notion of "human rights" - there are in reality only those privileges that are actually granted. I would like it if there were some kind of universally-accepted set of rights; but only if they are congruent with my own views about what "rights" should look like.

nottorp 3y ago

If it's done right, it can't be subverted in case of "emergency" can it? If it's full of bugs, it simply doesn't matter.

AJ007 3y ago
The "e2e" concept that most are familiar with is basically fake: the provider is responsible for the client that does the encryption and decryption. Of course they can break it if forced. Software exploits are a separate matter and also easier to deal with when the end user isn't truly in control of the encryption (or easier if they don't know what they are doing.)
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- gjsman-1000 3y ago
  If the client is properly developed and secured, they cannot break it without shipping an update to that client to change its behavior - which then affects everyone.
  - guappa 3y ago
    I'm quite sure they can use the app store to push a targeted update just to some.
    - px43 3y ago
      Yes, an operating system that uses a compromised software supply chain is at risk of compromise, but that really has nothing to do with e2ee.
      - shortsunblack 3y ago
        E2EE itself as a concept is ridiculous. The word was stolen from networking, end to end, and repurposed for an entirely different and non-sensical context to describe sth completely else. It has to do with "E2EE" because the biggest provided of it, Signal, pushes you to use 'compromised software supply chains' that are iOS and Play Store, evensofar as to spreading FUD about alternative distribution mechanisms, like APKs. That's why you have to go over yourself to find the APK of the App on Signal's website.

priprimer 3y ago

there’s only and opposing secret court mandating the opposite: publicly available encryption must be weakened on release

Quanttek 3y ago

I think that depends on what you mean: a general state of emergency or a specific situation where the police deem there to be an emergency (e.g. classic hidden bomb scenario) Regarding (2), the Court found that a statutory obligation to decrypt E2E-encrypted data upon (judicial) request to be disproportionate, but it could still be imagined that – if more narrowly construed – a law could be considered to be proportionate. But the Court does seem quite unwilling to entertain the idea of backdoors for E2E encryption. Regarding (1), the European Convention on Human Rights (ECHR) allows so-called derogations from certain rights in "time of war or other public emergency threatening the life of the nation" (Art 15 ECHR), insofar as they are necessary and the state of emergency has been properly declared. The right to privacy is such a right, so a State that faces an insurgency may declare a state of emergency and, as part of its emergency measures, could probably demand the decryption of E2E communications if it's necessary to fight the insurgency (e.g. it's a guerilla group using an E2E messenger) - but hard to judge in the abstract.

layer8 3y ago

Exceptional circumstances can warrant exceptional measures, but also require exceptional justification, for example by means of a juridical decision for the individual case (i.e., a judge issuing a warrant allowing the police to install and use a backdoor on a concrete individual).

eastbound 3y ago
Let’s just remind that “exceptional justifications” in Canada were “Truckers are protesting with honks in the middle of cities”, so not exactly a matter of national security and in the USA, NSA took it to mean “Any US or non-US citizen on US or non-US soil” (for national security letters).

steelframe 3y ago

> Is there an exception for emergency purposes? The problem is when the "emergency" is "the citizen may be engaged in political activities that are against the interests of the ruling party."

meindnoch 3y ago

Yes, in case of an emergency you can ask God to give you the prime factorization of 4096bit numbers.