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Counterpoint: grades put too much emphasis on performance, and not the joy of learning. Being a hardass and stack-ranking people doesn't actually encourage educ

Counterpoint: grades put too much emphasis on performance, and not the joy of learning. Being a hardass and stack-ranking people doesn't actually encourage education or innovation, but encourages people who are good at rote tasks that may not resemble real life.

WarOnPrivacy 3y ago
> stack-ranking people doesn't actually encourage education or innovation, but encourages people who are good at rote tasks that may not resemble real life. adjacent: My kids and I ace tests w/o studying. It's an ability we never had to work for. Afterward, the material was forgotten. Our good and bad grades both poorly reflect what we know.
- azemetre 3y ago
  What kinds of tests are you acing? Also for learning wouldn’t it be better to actually challenge yourself and exercise the brain muscles when learning something new? I’ve met too many first year college students who breezed through high school but never learned how to study. When the first calculus exam comes around they all tend to fail then get very anxious/depressed. Sometimes they’ll drop out entirely. I’m sure this story isn’t uncommon for others either.
  - softwaredoug 3y ago
    Some people enjoy trivia, tests, etc. It's not just about the knowledge, its about thinking about what the test-writer will ask, and how they will assess knowledge. And the fun of performing under pressure. I have always enjoyed tests. My son does too... Honestly it helps in other pursuits in life where you're evaluated under pressure (like interviewing). So its not a terrible thing.
    - WarOnPrivacy 3y ago
      > it helps in other pursuits in life where you're evaluated under pressure (like interviewing). It depends. It doesn't do much to overcome social challenges. ex: Son #1 studied for nothing but freezes hard in job interviews. Conversely, I've talked my way into a number positions for which I wasn't a good candidate. We've learned that interview-skills are more highly prized than being qualified. Usually far more.
  - tekla 3y ago
    Yep, very common. Pretty much everyone (including me) in my class who claimed didn't have to study in HS got their ass reamed during the 1st year.
  - WarOnPrivacy 3y ago
    > What kinds of tests are you acing? k-12, college. College was more mixed for me; learning happened in my C D and F subjects. I'd remember material trivially or w/ brutal difficulty. Always one or the other. I retained the latter.
    - mrguyorama 3y ago
      This is very much my experience but all the stuff I "didn't retain" is actually there, hidden deep, waiting for the right reference or trigger. It's deeply upsetting as my memory is both incredible and impressive, yet utterly useless to me if it doesn't "want" what I want. The hardest for me in college was simply having zero strategies to deal with my diagnosed ADHD. "Oh I'm so lazy and procrastinator but I get everything done well" doesn't work so well for your 400 level CS project. It sure is humbling going from "everyone believes you are literally a genius and teachers gossip about your standardized test scores that you max out the scale on" to "well I might at least be average intelligence". Internally I wish I could "unlock" that kind of just knowing things again, but the reality is that this is probably my actual potential and it was just easy for me to reach. The one counterpoint is that the 400 level algorithms class that started with the professor spending an hour explaining that most of the class fails every year and we need to take this seriously was super easy and fun and was nearly an A for me despite having no time management and project management skills.
      - WarOnPrivacy 3y ago
        > The hardest for me in college was simply having zero strategies to deal with my diagnosed ADHD. Ah yeah. Mine wasn't diagnosed (yet) but I wound up on Ritalin during my last year. Doing college with a job, 2 young kids and a disabled wife had it's own demands.
me_me_me 3y ago
educational system was never about joy of learning or enlightenment of young minds. It was always a nursery + learn basic skills like reading and math + creating habits like showing up on time (creating effective factory workers while their parents work in a factory). Later we added an extra level that prepares for higher education, and here all you are doing is jockeying for a spot in university. Cramming details for a big test so you can be graded vs you peers when applying for university. That's the whole point really. Was majority of knowledge gained in secondary school is lost by the end of your 1st year of university. The whole idea of school being a place that inspires young people is romanticized propaganda. At best a teacher might pick a student or two that shows promise and guide them a bit. But they can do it for all kids in every class. They cannot make physics interesting for all kids and make them get all 100% at final test.
- bo1024 3y ago
  This comment is not historically accurate with respect to universities. Universities originated as places of research and scholarship (there are also theological roots). Joy of learning and enlightenment are deep in their roots (so deep we may not be able to find them any more).
  - mjh2539 3y ago
    Universities originated to enable organized theological disputation. The student/teaching body consisted nearly entirely of clerics or would-be clerics.
    - bo1024 3y ago
      That's one of the origins for sure.
Gibbon1 3y ago
My mother was an accounting teacher. She said grades should be feedback to the student how well they are doing. And feedback to how well the teacher is doing. A student with a low grade really needs to consider upping their game or dialing back on their class load. People forget that the results of grades don't necessarily reflect the quality of the student. A student taking 6 classes is going to have a rougher time than one that's taking 1 class. A working single working mother is going to have less time to devote than a 20 year old living with her parents and only going to school. If your students are doing well enough on the tests that it's hard to not give them all A's you need to increase the level of material your teaching. Because really your wasting their time otherwise. If they're all failing you need to reevaluate the level of material and how you're teaching the class.

WarOnPrivacy 3y ago

> stack-ranking people doesn't actually encourage education or innovation, but encourages people who are good at rote tasks that may not resemble real life. adjacent: My kids and I ace tests w/o studying. It's an ability we never had to work for. Afterward, the material was forgotten. Our good and bad grades both poorly reflect what we know.

azemetre 3y ago
What kinds of tests are you acing? Also for learning wouldn’t it be better to actually challenge yourself and exercise the brain muscles when learning something new? I’ve met too many first year college students who breezed through high school but never learned how to study. When the first calculus exam comes around they all tend to fail then get very anxious/depressed. Sometimes they’ll drop out entirely. I’m sure this story isn’t uncommon for others either.
- softwaredoug 3y ago
  Some people enjoy trivia, tests, etc. It's not just about the knowledge, its about thinking about what the test-writer will ask, and how they will assess knowledge. And the fun of performing under pressure. I have always enjoyed tests. My son does too... Honestly it helps in other pursuits in life where you're evaluated under pressure (like interviewing). So its not a terrible thing.
  - WarOnPrivacy 3y ago
    > it helps in other pursuits in life where you're evaluated under pressure (like interviewing). It depends. It doesn't do much to overcome social challenges. ex: Son #1 studied for nothing but freezes hard in job interviews. Conversely, I've talked my way into a number positions for which I wasn't a good candidate. We've learned that interview-skills are more highly prized than being qualified. Usually far more.
- tekla 3y ago
  Yep, very common. Pretty much everyone (including me) in my class who claimed didn't have to study in HS got their ass reamed during the 1st year.
- WarOnPrivacy 3y ago
  > What kinds of tests are you acing? k-12, college. College was more mixed for me; learning happened in my C D and F subjects. I'd remember material trivially or w/ brutal difficulty. Always one or the other. I retained the latter.
  - mrguyorama 3y ago
    This is very much my experience but all the stuff I "didn't retain" is actually there, hidden deep, waiting for the right reference or trigger. It's deeply upsetting as my memory is both incredible and impressive, yet utterly useless to me if it doesn't "want" what I want. The hardest for me in college was simply having zero strategies to deal with my diagnosed ADHD. "Oh I'm so lazy and procrastinator but I get everything done well" doesn't work so well for your 400 level CS project. It sure is humbling going from "everyone believes you are literally a genius and teachers gossip about your standardized test scores that you max out the scale on" to "well I might at least be average intelligence". Internally I wish I could "unlock" that kind of just knowing things again, but the reality is that this is probably my actual potential and it was just easy for me to reach. The one counterpoint is that the 400 level algorithms class that started with the professor spending an hour explaining that most of the class fails every year and we need to take this seriously was super easy and fun and was nearly an A for me despite having no time management and project management skills.
    - WarOnPrivacy 3y ago
      > The hardest for me in college was simply having zero strategies to deal with my diagnosed ADHD. Ah yeah. Mine wasn't diagnosed (yet) but I wound up on Ritalin during my last year. Doing college with a job, 2 young kids and a disabled wife had it's own demands.

me_me_me 3y ago

educational system was never about joy of learning or enlightenment of young minds. It was always a nursery + learn basic skills like reading and math + creating habits like showing up on time (creating effective factory workers while their parents work in a factory). Later we added an extra level that prepares for higher education, and here all you are doing is jockeying for a spot in university. Cramming details for a big test so you can be graded vs you peers when applying for university. That's the whole point really. Was majority of knowledge gained in secondary school is lost by the end of your 1st year of university. The whole idea of school being a place that inspires young people is romanticized propaganda. At best a teacher might pick a student or two that shows promise and guide them a bit. But they can do it for all kids in every class. They cannot make physics interesting for all kids and make them get all 100% at final test.

bo1024 3y ago
This comment is not historically accurate with respect to universities. Universities originated as places of research and scholarship (there are also theological roots). Joy of learning and enlightenment are deep in their roots (so deep we may not be able to find them any more).
- mjh2539 3y ago
  Universities originated to enable organized theological disputation. The student/teaching body consisted nearly entirely of clerics or would-be clerics.
  - bo1024 3y ago
    That's one of the origins for sure.

Gibbon1 3y ago

My mother was an accounting teacher. She said grades should be feedback to the student how well they are doing. And feedback to how well the teacher is doing. A student with a low grade really needs to consider upping their game or dialing back on their class load. People forget that the results of grades don't necessarily reflect the quality of the student. A student taking 6 classes is going to have a rougher time than one that's taking 1 class. A working single working mother is going to have less time to devote than a 20 year old living with her parents and only going to school. If your students are doing well enough on the tests that it's hard to not give them all A's you need to increase the level of material your teaching. Because really your wasting their time otherwise. If they're all failing you need to reevaluate the level of material and how you're teaching the class.