4 ms·

It's all rent. Either from the bank or the landlord lol. Or can we see a break down of how many have 0 mortgage?

pc86 3y ago
Not sure how it is in Germany but in the US even if you buy your house in cash you don't own it. Go a few years without paying property taxes and you won't be in your house anymore.
- bryanlarsen 3y ago
  You can extend that argument to say that you own nothing. No matter what you own, I'm sure you can find a law restricting what you can do with it. For example, it's illegal to burn many things. Ownership isn't and never is absolute possession.
  - crazygringo 3y ago
    Not really -- real estate is pretty unique in that regard. Property taxes aren't a restriction on use, as you present it -- they're a requirement for continued ownership. I'm not going to go as far as the parent commenter to say it means you don't own it, but I can't think of any other possession where the government takes it away if you don't keep paying. Not books or washing machines or food or anything. Even with vehicles, you need to pay to keep them registered but if you don't you just can't drive them on public roads. They're not taken away from you. So real estate really is in a kind of special "you mostly own it but kinda not entirely".
    - hef19898 3y ago
      In Germany, cars. We pay taxes in car ownership. Thing is so, tax debt or default doesn't lead to the state taking you property away (ultimately yes, but then you are at default for a vwry long time and probably bankcrupt anyway). It just means you have to repay you debt, tax authorities might seize e.g. bank accounts. And even banks prefer refinancing over foreclosures, selling real estate is a risk and work German banks like to avoid.
      - crazygringo 3y ago
        From what I can find online, you don't have to pay that tax if you de-register the car, i.e. no longer use it on public roads. So it's not really any different from vehicle registration in the US. It's not a tax on vehicle ownership, but rather on annual usage of public roads per vehicle.
        hef19898 3y ago
        True! The vast majority of people so are not collecting cars, hence generaly people tax for the cars they own. You are absolutely right so, as long as you don't use your car on public roads, you don't pay taxes, don't need insurance or TÜV.
    - bryanlarsen 3y ago
      Still disagree. There are lots of things you need to actively spend effort and/or money on that the government will take away if you don't. Pets are one big category of stuff. Dangerous items are another.
      - crazygringo 3y ago
        You're undoing your own point. Your exact words were: > Ownership isn't and never is absolute possession. Actually, it usually mostly is. There are exceptions, but generally speaking it is absolute possession. It's not conditional. It's called property rights for a reason. The fact that you're bringing up exceptions just proves the existence of the rule in the just place. That doesn't mean you can use your property to do harm to others, or that you can bring it anywhere you want, or that it can't be seized if you refuse to pay debts. But most things you actually do simply own, flat-out, unlike real estate with its property tax requirement.
- skywhopper 3y ago
  Given that your property is defined by, supported by, and protected by the government, it makes sense that someone who is stealing from their neighbors by avoiding taxes should probably lose that property.
  - pc86 3y ago
    I'm not saying it's right or wrong, simply pointing out the fact. But I'd be remiss if I didn't point out that your example is someone with the means just choosing not to pay taxes, which are usually pretty small compared to the mortgage payment, especially if it was just recently paid off. But the much, much more common scenario is an older individual, maybe single-income but certainly fixed-income, being priced out by property tax increases.
hef19898 3y ago
Yeah, people still think that having a mortgage means the real estate is owned by the bank. Well that is just not the case. Repaying your mortgage is a combination of interest payments and repaying the debt. It goes to zero eventually. A rent is a permanent payment into the account of the person renting you something they own.
HumblyTossed 3y ago
As you pay off your mortgage, you build up equity in the house. So, you are in fact an owner.
- megamix 3y ago
  If the mortgage was possible to be paid off to 0 sure during your lifetime. The disposable income doesn't unfortunately. The error to believe the house price will always continue to rise is a risky belief. People always need somewhere to live, but where and when you enter/exit the market matters. If mortgage interest rates were not set to keep the banks happy, then it would possibly be a realistic scenario to believe the housing market works for the benefit of the population.
  - hef19898 3y ago
    Germans are a lot less likely to move aroubd than Americans so. Once you bought a house, chances are you still living there when you retire. So market value is a lot less important than the amount you pay every month for said housing once you retired. This whole speculating on real estate value is more of an US thing than it is European. Outside of real estate investors, but those are the landlorda Germans, and others, rent from.
  - bluGill 3y ago
    38% of US houses have no mortgage as all. And one assumes that enough people who have a mortgage are on track to pay it off eventually. Many people do cash-out-refinances which ensures you never pay the house off, but if you just treat like the mortgage like rent and do nothing else (though if you can get a better interest rate refinancing for what you owe is often a good idea) you will pay it off. If you can afford the initial payment, your effective payment typically goes down over time as inflation brings the rest of your income up. Once you have the house half paid for odds are your payment is so low compared the income that you will have no problem paying the rest off. The early years are tough though before inflation works for you. Of course if you do the cash-out refinance your payment raises more or less with inflation (just like rent) plus you get a nice chuck on cash to do whatever with. If you invest that cash wisely it might even be abetter investment than paying off the house (I don't think anyone has ever done this, but it is an option)
dukeyukey 3y ago
Having a mortgage just means you own and asset (the house) and a liability (the mortgage). It doesn't mean the bank owns the house, no matter how doomer you want to be.

pc86 3y ago

Not sure how it is in Germany but in the US even if you buy your house in cash you don't own it. Go a few years without paying property taxes and you won't be in your house anymore.

bryanlarsen 3y ago
You can extend that argument to say that you own nothing. No matter what you own, I'm sure you can find a law restricting what you can do with it. For example, it's illegal to burn many things. Ownership isn't and never is absolute possession.
- crazygringo 3y ago
  Not really -- real estate is pretty unique in that regard. Property taxes aren't a restriction on use, as you present it -- they're a requirement for continued ownership. I'm not going to go as far as the parent commenter to say it means you don't own it, but I can't think of any other possession where the government takes it away if you don't keep paying. Not books or washing machines or food or anything. Even with vehicles, you need to pay to keep them registered but if you don't you just can't drive them on public roads. They're not taken away from you. So real estate really is in a kind of special "you mostly own it but kinda not entirely".
  - hef19898 3y ago
    In Germany, cars. We pay taxes in car ownership. Thing is so, tax debt or default doesn't lead to the state taking you property away (ultimately yes, but then you are at default for a vwry long time and probably bankcrupt anyway). It just means you have to repay you debt, tax authorities might seize e.g. bank accounts. And even banks prefer refinancing over foreclosures, selling real estate is a risk and work German banks like to avoid.
    - crazygringo 3y ago
      From what I can find online, you don't have to pay that tax if you de-register the car, i.e. no longer use it on public roads. So it's not really any different from vehicle registration in the US. It's not a tax on vehicle ownership, but rather on annual usage of public roads per vehicle.
      - hef19898 3y ago
        True! The vast majority of people so are not collecting cars, hence generaly people tax for the cars they own. You are absolutely right so, as long as you don't use your car on public roads, you don't pay taxes, don't need insurance or TÜV.
  - bryanlarsen 3y ago
    Still disagree. There are lots of things you need to actively spend effort and/or money on that the government will take away if you don't. Pets are one big category of stuff. Dangerous items are another.
    - crazygringo 3y ago
      You're undoing your own point. Your exact words were: > Ownership isn't and never is absolute possession. Actually, it usually mostly is. There are exceptions, but generally speaking it is absolute possession. It's not conditional. It's called property rights for a reason. The fact that you're bringing up exceptions just proves the existence of the rule in the just place. That doesn't mean you can use your property to do harm to others, or that you can bring it anywhere you want, or that it can't be seized if you refuse to pay debts. But most things you actually do simply own, flat-out, unlike real estate with its property tax requirement.
skywhopper 3y ago
Given that your property is defined by, supported by, and protected by the government, it makes sense that someone who is stealing from their neighbors by avoiding taxes should probably lose that property.
- pc86 3y ago
  I'm not saying it's right or wrong, simply pointing out the fact. But I'd be remiss if I didn't point out that your example is someone with the means just choosing not to pay taxes, which are usually pretty small compared to the mortgage payment, especially if it was just recently paid off. But the much, much more common scenario is an older individual, maybe single-income but certainly fixed-income, being priced out by property tax increases.

hef19898 3y ago

Yeah, people still think that having a mortgage means the real estate is owned by the bank. Well that is just not the case. Repaying your mortgage is a combination of interest payments and repaying the debt. It goes to zero eventually. A rent is a permanent payment into the account of the person renting you something they own.

HumblyTossed 3y ago

As you pay off your mortgage, you build up equity in the house. So, you are in fact an owner.

megamix 3y ago
If the mortgage was possible to be paid off to 0 sure during your lifetime. The disposable income doesn't unfortunately. The error to believe the house price will always continue to rise is a risky belief. People always need somewhere to live, but where and when you enter/exit the market matters. If mortgage interest rates were not set to keep the banks happy, then it would possibly be a realistic scenario to believe the housing market works for the benefit of the population.
- hef19898 3y ago
  Germans are a lot less likely to move aroubd than Americans so. Once you bought a house, chances are you still living there when you retire. So market value is a lot less important than the amount you pay every month for said housing once you retired. This whole speculating on real estate value is more of an US thing than it is European. Outside of real estate investors, but those are the landlorda Germans, and others, rent from.
- bluGill 3y ago
  38% of US houses have no mortgage as all. And one assumes that enough people who have a mortgage are on track to pay it off eventually. Many people do cash-out-refinances which ensures you never pay the house off, but if you just treat like the mortgage like rent and do nothing else (though if you can get a better interest rate refinancing for what you owe is often a good idea) you will pay it off. If you can afford the initial payment, your effective payment typically goes down over time as inflation brings the rest of your income up. Once you have the house half paid for odds are your payment is so low compared the income that you will have no problem paying the rest off. The early years are tough though before inflation works for you. Of course if you do the cash-out refinance your payment raises more or less with inflation (just like rent) plus you get a nice chuck on cash to do whatever with. If you invest that cash wisely it might even be abetter investment than paying off the house (I don't think anyone has ever done this, but it is an option)

dukeyukey 3y ago

Having a mortgage just means you own and asset (the house) and a liability (the mortgage). It doesn't mean the bank owns the house, no matter how doomer you want to be.