7 ms·

XMPP as a protocol is pretty much dead on Android with all the battery optimisations in the newer versions. You can't get a decent user experience unless you in

XMPP as a protocol is pretty much dead on Android with all the battery optimisations in the newer versions. You can't get a decent user experience unless you integrate it with Firebase.

eurekin 3y ago
Pardon for a tangent! I've been so full of missing and delayed notifications I just bought an iPhone, which has zero issues with it, with zero configuration. Still, as I made a few really small android apps in the past, this has been a sticking point for me for years. Is it possible to write an app that can notify at ANY time? Let's say I want to monitor my self-hosted infrastructure. On an iPhone I get e-mail alerts right away. On Android, some ring exactly at the time I pick up the cursed phone. I checked for every possible consumer facing configuration option (deep sleep exclusion, background service allowed, etc.) and I found zero reliable options.
- Dibby053 3y ago
  Ntfy.sh seems to work perfectly on stock Android without firebase/GSF. I do have "unrestricted" enabled in app settings but it doesn't seem to impact battery life in a noticeable way. I never missed any notifications. Once you leave AOSP-land it can be more tricky, https://dontkillmyapp.com/ https://dontkillmyapp.com/ has more info if you're interested.
  - eurekin 3y ago
    Thank you! This actually looks very relevant [1]: > Even disabling the system battery restrictions does not save the app from being killed. Let's find out, if it is a bug or a feature... Here you can read more details I have Samsung s21; after years of fighting it (3 samsungs) I'm welcome to a bug explanation - [1] https://dontkillmyapp.com/samsung#:~:text=Even%20disabling%20the%20system%20battery%20restrictions%20does%20not%20save%20the%20app%20from%20being%20killed.%20Let%27s%20find%20out%2C%20if%20it%20is%20a%20bug%20or%20a%20feature...%20Here%20you%20can%20read%20more%20details https://dontkillmyapp.com/samsung#:~:text=Even%20disabling%2...
- londons_explore 3y ago
  iphone doesn't solve it... XMPP apps on iphone just use a server to be your agent and send push notifications instead.
  - eurekin 3y ago
    It solved "delayed notifications" for me, for certain: I still have original Samsung next to iPhone and it's clear as day: - iPhone rings, Samsung nothing - I wait few minutes just to be sure and pick up Samsung - immediately after picking it up the notification shows up, with the exact timestamp of the moment I picked it up That's why I called it a tangent to XMPP
    - londons_explore 3y ago
      I think this is because iphone has never allowed background apps to hold open persistent connections, yet android does but with device and power-state specific limitations. So the iphone version of any xmpp app has to use apples notification service, but the android version of the same app might try to use a direct connection (saving the app developer a lot of server costs), even though on many models of phone it only works when the device is charging for example.
    - lightedman 3y ago
      Most android devices do that - sleep-state an application and it won't tell you anything until you actively pick up the device and use it. Been like that since I had my Kyocera DuraForce Pro on Android 6 or 7.
      - eurekin 3y ago
        Yes, and there is an option to opt-out of that list. I did enable that. I'll phrase my issue differently: Is there any way to have reliable notification delivery that are time critical? Is actually calling the only 100% reliable option, as the PagerDuty does?
        3y ago
MattJ100 3y ago
Conversations has supported Google push notifications since 2016, long before Android started getting more aggressive about battery optimizations. It's been a standard feature of XMPP mobile apps for as long as it's been necessary.
- sdflhasjd 3y ago
  These are surely not purely client-side XMPP... clients, though? In order for you to receive push notifications, some server somewhere is connecting as you in order to relay the messages through GCM.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - singpolyma3 3y ago
    There is an XMPP standard for asking your own server to send "new message" pings via a GCM proxy. Nothing has to "connect as you".
    - kaptainscarlet 3y ago
      Server pings are almost useless in dozemode.
  - kuschku 3y ago
    No need for a relay. The actual XMPP servers nowadays support GCM natively. The client generates a GCM token and just hands that to the XMPP server. The server doesn't have to send actual message content either, it can just be a "wake up, there's a new message" ping the app can handle specially.
    - kaptainscarlet 3y ago
      Even if you send the wake up. You can't open an xmpp connection in the background
- 3y ago
yaky 3y ago
This was quite the opposite for me. Main reason my wife and I used XMPP for several years was because Conversations was the only app to get timely notifications on both googled and de-googled Android. And this worked until at least Android 11. At the time, Riot.im (now Element) either drained my battery checking for notifications without Google Play Services, or seemed to work fine, but did not get notifications in time even with Google Play Services. What you're describing also has been true for iOS for a while. Apps cannot do long-polling and require a push notification server (usually provided by the app maker, e.g: siskin, snikket, chatsecure), and that adds another point of failure.
- kaptainscarlet 3y ago
  Yes. Once an Android device goes into doze mode, there is nothing an app can do to sync in the background.you have to somehow extend your xmpp to route some messages via firebase which I believe whatsapp is doing
Tmpod 3y ago
UnifiedPush distributors such as ntfy.sh seem to work pretty well, in my experience. They don't seem to affect battery life much (at least according to system graphs) and they work well.
ralphm 3y ago
Besides what MattJ100 wrote above, by itself this is also not true. You can tell Android to not optimize Conversations and allow it to run in the background. It will work just fine with a (usually idle) TCP connection. But for the typical user, having to instruct them to do this is cumbersome, and integrating with Firebase is easier. It does come with its own concerns w.r.t. privacy, both for the payload as well as metadata exchanged.

XMPP as a protocol is pretty much dead on Android with all the battery optimisations in the newer versions. You can't get a decent user experience unless you integrate it with Firebase.

eurekin 3y ago

Pardon for a tangent! I've been so full of missing and delayed notifications I just bought an iPhone, which has zero issues with it, with zero configuration. Still, as I made a few really small android apps in the past, this has been a sticking point for me for years. Is it possible to write an app that can notify at ANY time? Let's say I want to monitor my self-hosted infrastructure. On an iPhone I get e-mail alerts right away. On Android, some ring exactly at the time I pick up the cursed phone. I checked for every possible consumer facing configuration option (deep sleep exclusion, background service allowed, etc.) and I found zero reliable options.

Dibby053 3y ago
Ntfy.sh seems to work perfectly on stock Android without firebase/GSF. I do have "unrestricted" enabled in app settings but it doesn't seem to impact battery life in a noticeable way. I never missed any notifications. Once you leave AOSP-land it can be more tricky, https://dontkillmyapp.com/ https://dontkillmyapp.com/ has more info if you're interested.
- eurekin 3y ago
  Thank you! This actually looks very relevant [1]: > Even disabling the system battery restrictions does not save the app from being killed. Let's find out, if it is a bug or a feature... Here you can read more details I have Samsung s21; after years of fighting it (3 samsungs) I'm welcome to a bug explanation - [1] https://dontkillmyapp.com/samsung#:~:text=Even%20disabling%20the%20system%20battery%20restrictions%20does%20not%20save%20the%20app%20from%20being%20killed.%20Let%27s%20find%20out%2C%20if%20it%20is%20a%20bug%20or%20a%20feature...%20Here%20you%20can%20read%20more%20details https://dontkillmyapp.com/samsung#:~:text=Even%20disabling%2...
londons_explore 3y ago
iphone doesn't solve it... XMPP apps on iphone just use a server to be your agent and send push notifications instead.
- eurekin 3y ago
  It solved "delayed notifications" for me, for certain: I still have original Samsung next to iPhone and it's clear as day: - iPhone rings, Samsung nothing - I wait few minutes just to be sure and pick up Samsung - immediately after picking it up the notification shows up, with the exact timestamp of the moment I picked it up That's why I called it a tangent to XMPP
  - londons_explore 3y ago
    I think this is because iphone has never allowed background apps to hold open persistent connections, yet android does but with device and power-state specific limitations. So the iphone version of any xmpp app has to use apples notification service, but the android version of the same app might try to use a direct connection (saving the app developer a lot of server costs), even though on many models of phone it only works when the device is charging for example.
  - lightedman 3y ago
    Most android devices do that - sleep-state an application and it won't tell you anything until you actively pick up the device and use it. Been like that since I had my Kyocera DuraForce Pro on Android 6 or 7.
    - eurekin 3y ago
      Yes, and there is an option to opt-out of that list. I did enable that. I'll phrase my issue differently: Is there any way to have reliable notification delivery that are time critical? Is actually calling the only 100% reliable option, as the PagerDuty does?
      - 3y ago

MattJ100 3y ago

Conversations has supported Google push notifications since 2016, long before Android started getting more aggressive about battery optimizations. It's been a standard feature of XMPP mobile apps for as long as it's been necessary.

sdflhasjd 3y ago
These are surely not purely client-side XMPP... clients, though? In order for you to receive push notifications, some server somewhere is connecting as you in order to relay the messages through GCM.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- singpolyma3 3y ago
  There is an XMPP standard for asking your own server to send "new message" pings via a GCM proxy. Nothing has to "connect as you".
  - kaptainscarlet 3y ago
    Server pings are almost useless in dozemode.
- kuschku 3y ago
  No need for a relay. The actual XMPP servers nowadays support GCM natively. The client generates a GCM token and just hands that to the XMPP server. The server doesn't have to send actual message content either, it can just be a "wake up, there's a new message" ping the app can handle specially.
  - kaptainscarlet 3y ago
    Even if you send the wake up. You can't open an xmpp connection in the background
3y ago

yaky 3y ago

This was quite the opposite for me. Main reason my wife and I used XMPP for several years was because Conversations was the only app to get timely notifications on both googled and de-googled Android. And this worked until at least Android 11. At the time, Riot.im (now Element) either drained my battery checking for notifications without Google Play Services, or seemed to work fine, but did not get notifications in time even with Google Play Services. What you're describing also has been true for iOS for a while. Apps cannot do long-polling and require a push notification server (usually provided by the app maker, e.g: siskin, snikket, chatsecure), and that adds another point of failure.

kaptainscarlet 3y ago
Yes. Once an Android device goes into doze mode, there is nothing an app can do to sync in the background.you have to somehow extend your xmpp to route some messages via firebase which I believe whatsapp is doing

Tmpod 3y ago

UnifiedPush distributors such as ntfy.sh seem to work pretty well, in my experience. They don't seem to affect battery life much (at least according to system graphs) and they work well.

ralphm 3y ago

Besides what MattJ100 wrote above, by itself this is also not true. You can tell Android to not optimize Conversations and allow it to run in the background. It will work just fine with a (usually idle) TCP connection. But for the typical user, having to instruct them to do this is cumbersome, and integrating with Firebase is easier. It does come with its own concerns w.r.t. privacy, both for the payload as well as metadata exchanged.