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I mean, Element and Matrix are 2 separate entities, which is kind of the key problem with all these efforts - there have been plenty of posts about how hard it

I mean, Element and Matrix are 2 separate entities, which is kind of the key problem with all these efforts - there have been plenty of posts about how hard it was to join a Mastodon instance, or creating 2 accounts etc. That said, the Element/Element X migration is a mess. But if he'd just gone to the Element website and clicked "get started", it would have just worked.

master-lincoln 3y ago
agree, the author mainly complained about UX issues in the client, but then only tried one client it seems. Article should have been titled "The Element Trashfire" > my recommendation is to avoid Matrix for at least two years which seems arbitrary. Why wait 2 years and not one or just a couple months? The french administration is already using it now https://www.tchap.gouv.fr/ https://www.tchap.gouv.fr/ In federated protocols it's always harder for the user to choose an instance for them. Not sure if the responsibility for that should be on the protocol managing party.
- Attrecomet 3y ago
  The author tried the exactly one client that was available from element in the app store. Hard to fault him for that.
  - bowsamic 3y ago
    The thing is that people will defend this as a feature of this kind of system, rather than a problem
  - master-lincoln 3y ago
    Well, they tried to use an open source ecosystem by finding an app in a store where devs need to pay to get their apps in. Maybe not the best combination
    - croes 3y ago
      What do you think non IT people would do?
      - jeroenhd 3y ago
        They wouldn't even know Matrix existed, most likely. They certainly wouldn't have found "Element" on their own. If they did manage to find Element at all, I would guess that would be through the "try matrix" button on matrix.org, which has an "install Element" button, which then leads to a "download for macOS" button. More realistically, people would be typing "Matrix" into GPlay or the app store on their phones. The confusing Element/Element X situation would still apply, of course.
        dzaima 3y ago
        If one knows about Matrix/Element, it'll of course be from hearing/reading about it somewhere. And thus if they were just told "discussion is at #foo:example.org on Element" or whatever they'll clearly go for Element (and I've seen "Element" be used for "Matrix" a couple times). Though then at least maybe they wouldn't manage to pass the blame on Matrix for what is an Element problem.
IanCal 3y ago
> But if he'd just gone to the Element website and clicked "get started", it would have just worked. No it wouldn't. element.io -> get started gives this: > Get started. > Setup a self-hosted or cloud deployment, with powerful enterprise capabilities. edit - expanding. The element site is entirely about getting something for your business. It has a pricing page that tells me it'll be free for up to 200 users but I have to self host. Nothing on the front page of it tells me it's a free app I can use elsewhere. I have to go to "product" (!) and choose the app.
- crimsoneer 3y ago
  I mean, it's a commercial offering first. But "want to download the free app?" is right underneath it.
  - bowsamic 3y ago
    You suggested it based on your assumption that the UX would be sane but now after being told that it isn't you are backtracking. As it stands, your original comment is now objectively wrong, because you made exactly the kinds of assumptions the blog post author was making: that the UX would be reasonable at each step.
  - IanCal 3y ago
    > But "want to download the free app?" is right underneath it. To get started with element the app and create an account to chat you are saying I should not install one of their applications, instead I should 1. Go to the element site 2. Ignore all the talk about it being a product for teams 3. Still want to get started with not what the page is about, click on get started 4. Totally ignore what it tells me the page is for, because it's about setting up a server 5. Still want to download the application regardless 6. Scroll past all the CTAs and the form 7. Download the app
bowsamic 3y ago
> But if he'd just gone to the Element website and clicked "get started", it would have just worked. Going to element.io and clicking "get started" takes you to a form to submit some kind of enterprise inquiry, asking what the name and size of your company is...
linuxandrew 3y ago
> I mean, Element and Matrix are 2 separate entities Separate but they work closely from what I gather. New Vector develops Element/ElementX and has seats on the Matrix.org board. Element is the Matrix.org flagship client. I do appreciate that Matrix.org has its own foundation and I don't mean to disparage New Vector in any way, but they are undeniably closely linked. I'm not sure if Matrix would survive without New Vector.
- dingnuts 3y ago
  Not only are they actually very closely linked, in that Element operates matrix.org, but to a new user (told to try Matrix -- what is this Element thing?) there's no difference. I onboarded a family member onto my Matrix server with FluffyChat as the client. This person is a power user, fairly technical, yet still refers to the chat as "FluffyChat" and although I've explained several times that choosing FluffyChat was maybe a mistake and they should use Element, it never seems to really click that multiple clients are possible. And really, they aren't possible. They have different subsets of features. If you want to see a trash can fire, just try to follow the discussion for adding custom emoji to Matrix: https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-spec-proposals/pull/1951 https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-spec-proposals/pull/195... it's been going on for years. It's a feature the competitors have had for half a decade, as long as this discussion has been ongoing. I've been watching this issue for half a decade thinking "surely they'll decide on something" but mostly all I've been convinced of is this: Matrix is design by committee in all of the worst aspects and at every level of design. If anything gets done at all, it's a convoluted mess, and it's a miracle that it even happens. I wish community software developers would focus their attention.. somewhere else.
  - cvwright 3y ago
    Custom emoji? We don’t even have captions for images yet!
jeroenhd 3y ago
> The Element/Element X migration is a mess I think this is a key issue here. Element X is unfinished, but isn't labeled as such. The rest seems to be the result of a buggy, unfinished process, that I don't think exists on the stable client. It probably also doesn't help that the Element app on iOS has received relatively little attention over the years compared to the Android app, which has had several rewrites. This is probably also why Element X is getting so much focus, as it's the first fresh start for Matrix on Apple's platforms in ages. Matrix is cool tech, but it's not easy to get into. I'd argue the same for XMPP and other federated services, as their competition has the advantage of having one app managed by one company. Even things like email are confusing to people beyond the very basics; setting up an email client is still something technical support needs to hand-hold people through, no matter how many wizards and step-by-step guides apps may add.

master-lincoln 3y ago

agree, the author mainly complained about UX issues in the client, but then only tried one client it seems. Article should have been titled "The Element Trashfire" > my recommendation is to avoid Matrix for at least two years which seems arbitrary. Why wait 2 years and not one or just a couple months? The french administration is already using it now https://www.tchap.gouv.fr/ https://www.tchap.gouv.fr/ In federated protocols it's always harder for the user to choose an instance for them. Not sure if the responsibility for that should be on the protocol managing party.

Attrecomet 3y ago
The author tried the exactly one client that was available from element in the app store. Hard to fault him for that.
- bowsamic 3y ago
  The thing is that people will defend this as a feature of this kind of system, rather than a problem
- master-lincoln 3y ago
  Well, they tried to use an open source ecosystem by finding an app in a store where devs need to pay to get their apps in. Maybe not the best combination
  - croes 3y ago
    What do you think non IT people would do?
    - jeroenhd 3y ago
      They wouldn't even know Matrix existed, most likely. They certainly wouldn't have found "Element" on their own. If they did manage to find Element at all, I would guess that would be through the "try matrix" button on matrix.org, which has an "install Element" button, which then leads to a "download for macOS" button. More realistically, people would be typing "Matrix" into GPlay or the app store on their phones. The confusing Element/Element X situation would still apply, of course.
      - dzaima 3y ago
        If one knows about Matrix/Element, it'll of course be from hearing/reading about it somewhere. And thus if they were just told "discussion is at #foo:example.org on Element" or whatever they'll clearly go for Element (and I've seen "Element" be used for "Matrix" a couple times). Though then at least maybe they wouldn't manage to pass the blame on Matrix for what is an Element problem.

IanCal 3y ago

> But if he'd just gone to the Element website and clicked "get started", it would have just worked. No it wouldn't. element.io -> get started gives this: > Get started. > Setup a self-hosted or cloud deployment, with powerful enterprise capabilities. edit - expanding. The element site is entirely about getting something for your business. It has a pricing page that tells me it'll be free for up to 200 users but I have to self host. Nothing on the front page of it tells me it's a free app I can use elsewhere. I have to go to "product" (!) and choose the app.

crimsoneer 3y ago
I mean, it's a commercial offering first. But "want to download the free app?" is right underneath it.
- bowsamic 3y ago
  You suggested it based on your assumption that the UX would be sane but now after being told that it isn't you are backtracking. As it stands, your original comment is now objectively wrong, because you made exactly the kinds of assumptions the blog post author was making: that the UX would be reasonable at each step.
- IanCal 3y ago
  > But "want to download the free app?" is right underneath it. To get started with element the app and create an account to chat you are saying I should not install one of their applications, instead I should 1. Go to the element site 2. Ignore all the talk about it being a product for teams 3. Still want to get started with not what the page is about, click on get started 4. Totally ignore what it tells me the page is for, because it's about setting up a server 5. Still want to download the application regardless 6. Scroll past all the CTAs and the form 7. Download the app

bowsamic 3y ago

> But if he'd just gone to the Element website and clicked "get started", it would have just worked. Going to element.io and clicking "get started" takes you to a form to submit some kind of enterprise inquiry, asking what the name and size of your company is...

linuxandrew 3y ago

> I mean, Element and Matrix are 2 separate entities Separate but they work closely from what I gather. New Vector develops Element/ElementX and has seats on the Matrix.org board. Element is the Matrix.org flagship client. I do appreciate that Matrix.org has its own foundation and I don't mean to disparage New Vector in any way, but they are undeniably closely linked. I'm not sure if Matrix would survive without New Vector.

dingnuts 3y ago
Not only are they actually very closely linked, in that Element operates matrix.org, but to a new user (told to try Matrix -- what is this Element thing?) there's no difference. I onboarded a family member onto my Matrix server with FluffyChat as the client. This person is a power user, fairly technical, yet still refers to the chat as "FluffyChat" and although I've explained several times that choosing FluffyChat was maybe a mistake and they should use Element, it never seems to really click that multiple clients are possible. And really, they aren't possible. They have different subsets of features. If you want to see a trash can fire, just try to follow the discussion for adding custom emoji to Matrix: https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-spec-proposals/pull/1951 https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-spec-proposals/pull/195... it's been going on for years. It's a feature the competitors have had for half a decade, as long as this discussion has been ongoing. I've been watching this issue for half a decade thinking "surely they'll decide on something" but mostly all I've been convinced of is this: Matrix is design by committee in all of the worst aspects and at every level of design. If anything gets done at all, it's a convoluted mess, and it's a miracle that it even happens. I wish community software developers would focus their attention.. somewhere else.
- cvwright 3y ago
  Custom emoji? We don’t even have captions for images yet!

jeroenhd 3y ago

> The Element/Element X migration is a mess I think this is a key issue here. Element X is unfinished, but isn't labeled as such. The rest seems to be the result of a buggy, unfinished process, that I don't think exists on the stable client. It probably also doesn't help that the Element app on iOS has received relatively little attention over the years compared to the Android app, which has had several rewrites. This is probably also why Element X is getting so much focus, as it's the first fresh start for Matrix on Apple's platforms in ages. Matrix is cool tech, but it's not easy to get into. I'd argue the same for XMPP and other federated services, as their competition has the advantage of having one app managed by one company. Even things like email are confusing to people beyond the very basics; setting up an email client is still something technical support needs to hand-hold people through, no matter how many wizards and step-by-step guides apps may add.