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I'm still salty about the .eu thing. I was an EU citizen for 42 years of my life and I used a .eu domain as my primary email address for many years. Not only di

by nicky0 3y ago

I'm still salty about the .eu thing. I was an EU citizen for 42 years of my life and I used a .eu domain as my primary email address for many years. Not only did the EU decide I could not longer have it, they've made it available for anyone to register. Hundreds of my website registrations were tied to that email address. Thankfully I had sufficient advance notice to tediously re-register the majority of sites to a non-.eu domain email. But there are still a few I didn't catch. Thanks for that, EU. (Edit: thanks also to the Brexit voters, yes .... but I still contend that the EU could have made an accomodation for existing registrants to hold onto their domains, instead of take them away and re-list them for anyone to get. Edit 2: Of course, any Brit well-resourced enough to set up some kind of shell company in EU to hold on to their domain will have been able to keep it. So the claim that "UK people should not be able to own .eu domain. It's confusing and misleading" does not hold water ... it's perfectly possible to do so even today by various trickery. So this decision only affects regular people. Not big business or the very wealthy.)

dijit 3y ago
I guess it’s a weird thought experiment, but what if scotland left the UK, should they still have rights to use .uk tld’s? Maybe yes for historical reasons but it is a twee bit odd to have what is essentially a foreign entity representing themselves with your name. Do you UK? Or have you always resided outside the EU?
- nicky0 3y ago
  I would argue for a "grandfathering in" provision. Both in the Brexit case and your hypothetical Scexit. So, if Scotland became independent, the remaining UK might close the .uk ccTLD for new Scottish registrations but existing domain holders should have the right to retain their registrations indefinitely. I think it's ethically wrong to forcible take away someone's domain name without exceptionally good reason (such as abusive use of domain or whatever). (Yes, I am a UK citizen. By "the .eu thing" I was referring to the situation as described in the article.)
  - kolp 3y ago
    First, nobody owns a domain; it is assigned to a registrant, by the registry, via the registrar. No domain "owner" has ownership rights; you have the right to use the domain subject to the rules of the registry. If the rules of the registry require the registrant to be a citizen or body of the EU and the registrant no longer meets that requirement, the registrant loses the right to use the domain. Your proposed solution of grandfathering existing registrations would cause confusion or uncertainty for end users (site visitors) who could not ascertain with confidence that the organisation with which they were dealing was actually in the EU, or registered to an EU citizen or body. Your assertion that the EU enforced the established rules because they were "being dicks" to the UK is similar to the anti-EU tropes spouted by the anti-EU press in the UK, eg the EU is punishing Brits by making them use non-EU passport lanes, restricting their visits to 90 days, etc. Your fellow citizens voted (unfortunately) to leave the organisation and these are the consequences of non-membership. If you decide to leave your golf club, you don't get to continue using the golf course and clubhouse.
    - nicky0 3y ago
      > Your proposed solution of grandfathering existing registrations would cause confusion or uncertainty for end users (site visitors) who could not ascertain with confidence that the organisation with which they were dealing was actually in the EU, or registered to an EU citizen or body. I don't buy that argument. A UK citizen can still register .eu TLD through a company they control in the EU, if they have the resources to do so. The EU's decision to rescind registrations for former EU citizens only really affects non-wealthy private citizens. The wealthy, and large companies, can get around the rule. Secondly, there is precendent for this kind of thing. When Soviet Union broke up, .su domains registrants were allowed to keep their registrations despite now being Ukrainian or Estonian or whatever citizens. Similarly when Yugoslavia broke up, .yu registrants could keep theirs, they weren't forced to surrender. Edit: And a union of nation states is not like a golf club. You cannot reduce the argument by analogy to a sports club membership. A political union is much more complex than that. Citizenship, free movement etc., or course those could not continue after Brexit. Those are politically fundamental. But when it comes to internet's DNS system, people have lives and businesses that are contingent on maintining exclusive control of a given set of characters on a DNS server. Basic security of the internet is built around the expectation of being able to maintain indefinite control of a domain. Sure, the EU rules said domain owners must reside in EU/EEA but I expect that the possibility of a country leaving EU was not considered when that rule was written (certainly, I did not consider it at the time I registered the domain). It would be prudent and reasonable to revisit those rules in light of such a significant and unexpexted event as Brexit and the significant problems it would cause to affected existing .eu domain registrants. But no, this was simply impossible -- rules are rules! /s Edit 2: Indeed, the EU did rewrite the rules. Because EU citizens remaining residing in the UK would also lose their registrations, the EU rewrote to rules to allow citizenship as well as residence to be a qualification for domain registration. So the argument that the rules were fixed in stone and known by everyone, and so should not be changed, does not hold water either. The EU did change the rules to account for Brexit. But chose to do harm to existing domain registrants from the UK anyway for no apparent benefit to anyone.
- razakel 3y ago
  .uk is not actually a ccTLD - the country code is really gb. .gb is delegated, but unused.
  - dijit 3y ago
    Oh wow, really? That's insane and such an absurd oversight. Given that the government literally uses gov.uk and ac.uk for academic institutions. EDIT: seems one of us is wrong; > .uk is the Internet country code top-level domain (ccTLD) for the United Kingdom. It was first registered in July 1985, seven months after the original generic top-level domains such as .com and the first country code after .us.
    - razakel 3y ago
      It's in a weird state where it was manually delegated before the ISO-based ones were created. So it's not actually a ccTLD, but is treated as one.
      - samatman 3y ago
        This is not correct. `.uk` is a ccTLD, and it isn't the ISO 3166 code for the UK, which is `gb`. These are two different systems with substantial overlap.
        razakel 3y ago
        And in FIPS "GB" is Gabon, leading to all sorts of fun.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
gpvos 3y ago
Assuming this is because of Brexit, it was the UK that decided that, so you should thank them. The rule that the domain is EU/EEA-only already existed and was clear.
- nicky0 3y ago
  Well, I'm a citizen of the UK and I voted in the referendum to stay in the EU. The EU could have agreed to change its TLD ownershipo rules rules (which they actually have done recently, so the rules are not set in stone) to introduce a grandfathering-in provision if they had wanted to. Close it for new registrations but allow existing resistratnts to continue to renew. But it seems they chose to be dicks about it, perhaps to spite the UK I guess. Maybe to send a warning to other truculent EU countries. I can't say I understand their reasoning. Perhaps just petty bureaucracy at work. But now that the precedent is set, other EU citizens should be very wary of using .eu domains. There's no guarantee that your country will remain in the EU forever either.
  - ithkuil 3y ago
    Doing that for spite is a very short-sighted thing indeed. I think Hanlon's razor offers a better explanation
    - blibble 3y ago
      it was spite: the EU Commission explicitly said it wanted those domains cancelled and that the rules would not be changed
      - ithkuil 3y ago
        Funny enough Hanlon's razor still applies because in this case the stupidity lies in the counterproductive use of malice.
        gpvos 3y ago
        Why counterproductive? It has become remarkably quiet on the front of countries making plans to leave the EU. Insightful remark, nevertheless.
WindyMiller 3y ago
If this happened because you're in the UK, it's not the EU's fault we left and you're blaming the wrong people.
- nicky0 3y ago
  Let's not get into Brexit mud-slinging. I simply contend that EU could have made a more reasonable accomodation for existing UK holders of .eu domains.
  - WindyMiller 3y ago
    I think it's perfectly reasonable not to offer the UK special treatment over other nations. It would certainly have been more generous to allow UK registrants to retain their domains, but it doesn't seem to me more reasonable. The EU's responsibility is to its members, and they negotiated the withdrawal agreement accordingly. The UK could, of course, have made access to the .eu TLD a higher priority when negotiating the withdrawal agreement. I expect we could have secured it. I don't see any reason to believe that the EU witheld it unreasonably. I don't think it's mud-slinging to point out that the EU didn't kick us out!
  - lynx23 3y ago
    Could have, but shouldn't.
- midasuni 3y ago
  The RU did not have to remove the citizenship from millions of people who were born EU citizens and had no say in the minority decision to leave the EU
  - lupusreal 3y ago
    I'm sure Russia did no such thing!
  - WindyMiller 3y ago
    It doesn't have to withold citizenship from anyone. In some ways it's more reasonable that I lost my EU citizenship through a democratic process in my country than that, say, a Turkish person doesn't have EU citizenship because the process of joining has taken so long. I'd like to still be an EU citizen but I don't see how it's the EU's fault that I'm not.
palata 3y ago
> but I still contend that the EU could have made an accomodation for existing registrants to hold onto their domains Sure, and I completely understand your position. But... well many other UK citizen had at least some inconvenience resulting from the Brexit. Should the EU have gone out of their way to accommodate everyone from the country that essentially said "I don't care about the EU anymore"? If you could leave the EU, keep all the benefits of being in the EU and get all the benefits of not being in the EU all at the same time, then there would be no EU. So yeah... you can't have it all :-). Good reminder that personal domains should not be chosen as `.eu` though.

by nicky0 3y ago

dijit 3y ago

I guess it’s a weird thought experiment, but what if scotland left the UK, should they still have rights to use .uk tld’s? Maybe yes for historical reasons but it is a twee bit odd to have what is essentially a foreign entity representing themselves with your name. Do you UK? Or have you always resided outside the EU?

nicky0 3y ago
I would argue for a "grandfathering in" provision. Both in the Brexit case and your hypothetical Scexit. So, if Scotland became independent, the remaining UK might close the .uk ccTLD for new Scottish registrations but existing domain holders should have the right to retain their registrations indefinitely. I think it's ethically wrong to forcible take away someone's domain name without exceptionally good reason (such as abusive use of domain or whatever). (Yes, I am a UK citizen. By "the .eu thing" I was referring to the situation as described in the article.)
- kolp 3y ago
  First, nobody owns a domain; it is assigned to a registrant, by the registry, via the registrar. No domain "owner" has ownership rights; you have the right to use the domain subject to the rules of the registry. If the rules of the registry require the registrant to be a citizen or body of the EU and the registrant no longer meets that requirement, the registrant loses the right to use the domain. Your proposed solution of grandfathering existing registrations would cause confusion or uncertainty for end users (site visitors) who could not ascertain with confidence that the organisation with which they were dealing was actually in the EU, or registered to an EU citizen or body. Your assertion that the EU enforced the established rules because they were "being dicks" to the UK is similar to the anti-EU tropes spouted by the anti-EU press in the UK, eg the EU is punishing Brits by making them use non-EU passport lanes, restricting their visits to 90 days, etc. Your fellow citizens voted (unfortunately) to leave the organisation and these are the consequences of non-membership. If you decide to leave your golf club, you don't get to continue using the golf course and clubhouse.
  - nicky0 3y ago
    > Your proposed solution of grandfathering existing registrations would cause confusion or uncertainty for end users (site visitors) who could not ascertain with confidence that the organisation with which they were dealing was actually in the EU, or registered to an EU citizen or body. I don't buy that argument. A UK citizen can still register .eu TLD through a company they control in the EU, if they have the resources to do so. The EU's decision to rescind registrations for former EU citizens only really affects non-wealthy private citizens. The wealthy, and large companies, can get around the rule. Secondly, there is precendent for this kind of thing. When Soviet Union broke up, .su domains registrants were allowed to keep their registrations despite now being Ukrainian or Estonian or whatever citizens. Similarly when Yugoslavia broke up, .yu registrants could keep theirs, they weren't forced to surrender. Edit: And a union of nation states is not like a golf club. You cannot reduce the argument by analogy to a sports club membership. A political union is much more complex than that. Citizenship, free movement etc., or course those could not continue after Brexit. Those are politically fundamental. But when it comes to internet's DNS system, people have lives and businesses that are contingent on maintining exclusive control of a given set of characters on a DNS server. Basic security of the internet is built around the expectation of being able to maintain indefinite control of a domain. Sure, the EU rules said domain owners must reside in EU/EEA but I expect that the possibility of a country leaving EU was not considered when that rule was written (certainly, I did not consider it at the time I registered the domain). It would be prudent and reasonable to revisit those rules in light of such a significant and unexpexted event as Brexit and the significant problems it would cause to affected existing .eu domain registrants. But no, this was simply impossible -- rules are rules! /s Edit 2: Indeed, the EU did rewrite the rules. Because EU citizens remaining residing in the UK would also lose their registrations, the EU rewrote to rules to allow citizenship as well as residence to be a qualification for domain registration. So the argument that the rules were fixed in stone and known by everyone, and so should not be changed, does not hold water either. The EU did change the rules to account for Brexit. But chose to do harm to existing domain registrants from the UK anyway for no apparent benefit to anyone.
razakel 3y ago
.uk is not actually a ccTLD - the country code is really gb. .gb is delegated, but unused.
- dijit 3y ago
  Oh wow, really? That's insane and such an absurd oversight. Given that the government literally uses gov.uk and ac.uk for academic institutions. EDIT: seems one of us is wrong; > .uk is the Internet country code top-level domain (ccTLD) for the United Kingdom. It was first registered in July 1985, seven months after the original generic top-level domains such as .com and the first country code after .us.
  - razakel 3y ago
    It's in a weird state where it was manually delegated before the ISO-based ones were created. So it's not actually a ccTLD, but is treated as one.
    - samatman 3y ago
      This is not correct. `.uk` is a ccTLD, and it isn't the ISO 3166 code for the UK, which is `gb`. These are two different systems with substantial overlap.
      - razakel 3y ago
        And in FIPS "GB" is Gabon, leading to all sorts of fun.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

gpvos 3y ago

Assuming this is because of Brexit, it was the UK that decided that, so you should thank them. The rule that the domain is EU/EEA-only already existed and was clear.

nicky0 3y ago
Well, I'm a citizen of the UK and I voted in the referendum to stay in the EU. The EU could have agreed to change its TLD ownershipo rules rules (which they actually have done recently, so the rules are not set in stone) to introduce a grandfathering-in provision if they had wanted to. Close it for new registrations but allow existing resistratnts to continue to renew. But it seems they chose to be dicks about it, perhaps to spite the UK I guess. Maybe to send a warning to other truculent EU countries. I can't say I understand their reasoning. Perhaps just petty bureaucracy at work. But now that the precedent is set, other EU citizens should be very wary of using .eu domains. There's no guarantee that your country will remain in the EU forever either.
- ithkuil 3y ago
  Doing that for spite is a very short-sighted thing indeed. I think Hanlon's razor offers a better explanation
  - blibble 3y ago
    it was spite: the EU Commission explicitly said it wanted those domains cancelled and that the rules would not be changed
    - ithkuil 3y ago
      Funny enough Hanlon's razor still applies because in this case the stupidity lies in the counterproductive use of malice.
      - gpvos 3y ago
        Why counterproductive? It has become remarkably quiet on the front of countries making plans to leave the EU. Insightful remark, nevertheless.

WindyMiller 3y ago

If this happened because you're in the UK, it's not the EU's fault we left and you're blaming the wrong people.

nicky0 3y ago
Let's not get into Brexit mud-slinging. I simply contend that EU could have made a more reasonable accomodation for existing UK holders of .eu domains.
- WindyMiller 3y ago
  I think it's perfectly reasonable not to offer the UK special treatment over other nations. It would certainly have been more generous to allow UK registrants to retain their domains, but it doesn't seem to me more reasonable. The EU's responsibility is to its members, and they negotiated the withdrawal agreement accordingly. The UK could, of course, have made access to the .eu TLD a higher priority when negotiating the withdrawal agreement. I expect we could have secured it. I don't see any reason to believe that the EU witheld it unreasonably. I don't think it's mud-slinging to point out that the EU didn't kick us out!
- lynx23 3y ago
  Could have, but shouldn't.
midasuni 3y ago
The RU did not have to remove the citizenship from millions of people who were born EU citizens and had no say in the minority decision to leave the EU
- lupusreal 3y ago
  I'm sure Russia did no such thing!
- WindyMiller 3y ago
  It doesn't have to withold citizenship from anyone. In some ways it's more reasonable that I lost my EU citizenship through a democratic process in my country than that, say, a Turkish person doesn't have EU citizenship because the process of joining has taken so long. I'd like to still be an EU citizen but I don't see how it's the EU's fault that I'm not.

palata 3y ago

> but I still contend that the EU could have made an accomodation for existing registrants to hold onto their domains Sure, and I completely understand your position. But... well many other UK citizen had at least some inconvenience resulting from the Brexit. Should the EU have gone out of their way to accommodate everyone from the country that essentially said "I don't care about the EU anymore"? If you could leave the EU, keep all the benefits of being in the EU and get all the benefits of not being in the EU all at the same time, then there would be no EU. So yeah... you can't have it all :-). Good reminder that personal domains should not be chosen as `.eu` though.