6 ms·

Apple kills many browser games in the EU: unprecedented affront to regulation

36 points by agust 3y ago

LeoPanthera 3y ago
I have some sympathy for Apple here. The EU required Apple to offer the option of multiple browser engines. PWAs cannot integrate with iOS without using iOS's engine. So there's no way to legally offer that feature.
- gmerc 3y ago
  That’s nonsense.
- commoner 3y ago
  Why should anyone give Apple sympathy for restricting PWAs to Safari in iOS? There is no valid reason for Apple to prevent PWAs from opening in the default browser selected by the user.
  - kj99 3y ago
    You know as well as everyone else does that PWA’s require the browser to be able to integrate with the platform at the level of the OS which would break iOS’s security model. You might want the EU to force iOS to be an open platform, but I don’t think that was their intent when they made the requirement to allow alternate browsers.
    - veeti 3y ago
      > which would break iOS’s security model And how is that exactly? Can you please elaborate? It's all so familiar: just a year ago Apple would have had us believe that "You know as well as everyone else does that third party browser engines must integrate with the platform at the level of the OS which would break iOS’s security model." Well, that obviously wasn't true, but there's still sheeple who will take the bait again and again :-)
      - kj99 3y ago
        [flagged]
        veeti 3y ago
        So you're just talking out your ass then.
        kj99 3y ago
        [flagged]
        veeti 3y ago
        Okay, enjoy fellating the $2.8 trillion company online for virtual points, I'm sure they will throw you a free MacBook at some point.
        kj99 3y ago
        I think you’ve made my point quite nicely.
        veeti 3y ago
        We're all waiting for your technical arguments on the point, but it doesn't sound like you are actually interested in having a conversation that could be called intellectual in some way.
        kj99 3y ago
        Do you expect me to take you seriously after your last few comments? Who in their right mind would have a technical discussion with you?
    - commoner 3y ago
      Preventing other browsers from implementing PWAs does not improve security in iOS. This is a self-serving restriction intended to discourage users from switching away from Safari.
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
      - kj99 3y ago
        How exactly does it discourage users from switching away from safari?
        commoner 3y ago
        With these changes, Safari is the only browser allowed by Apple to implement PWAs on iOS, which gives Safari an advantage over the other browsers that are not allowed to implement PWAs on iOS. Anyone who uses PWAs on iOS must do so via Safari. PWA users who prefer a non-Safari browser on iOS must switch between their preferred browser and Safari for their web browsing needs. The additional burden of maintaining two web browsers discourages these users from switching away from Safari, and the entire setup prevents these users from leaving Safari completely.
        kj99 3y ago
        That’s not what’s happening here. PWA’s are disabled altogether in the EU to avoid exactly this favoritism.
        commoner 3y ago
        According to the article, the latest iOS beta prevents non-Safari browsers from adding PWA icons to the home screen. These changes retain iOS's favoritism of Safari.
        kj99 3y ago
        Not just non-safari browsers.
    - alberto180 3y ago
      They worked just fine until now. Also PWA's are sandboxed in the Browser, and Apple still reviews every App, even the 3rd Party ones
- calgarymicro 3y ago
  Since Apple has to approve every browser anyway (whether on the App Store or not), why couldn't they just enable it only for WebKit browsers? But putting even that totally aside, more engines does absolutely nothing to explain why they've also ended PWAs' ability to run in full-screen mode.
snvzz 3y ago
Apple sure has a lot of money, but this doesn't mean they can be allowed to think that they can do whatever they want. EU can and should tighten the screws. Exponential fines. It is free money for the EU.
- LeoPanthera 3y ago
  Apple is doing exactly what the EU required them to do.
  - piva00 3y ago
    Not the spirit of the law, which matters in the EU.
    - kj99 3y ago
      In this instance I’m pretty sure it is the spirit of the law. The spirit of the law was to allow competing browser engines to be on an equal footing.
  - goosedragons 3y ago
    Apple is made up of the kids who when told to stop touching their sibling, holds their finger a mm away.
kj99 3y ago
People keep saying things like ‘affront to regulation’, but the regulation wasn’t written to make iOS more open. It was written to enable certain other middlemen more access to specific parts of iOS. If the EU wanted to force iOS to be an open platform, they could have written a law to that effect. I wish people would realize that just because the EU is regulating Apple and it’s fun to see power be brought to bear against Apple, it doesn’t mean the EU is actually competent to regulate the market.
- commoner 3y ago
  > it doesn’t mean the EU is actually competent to regulate the market The EU has done more to improve consumer choice in the mobile app industry than any other region in the world. They can go even further, but their progress so far certainly demonstrates competence.
  - kj99 3y ago
    What are you talking about?
    - jerojero 3y ago
      USB C comes to mind. I think that's an example of a successful regulatory measure. What will happen with the DMA is still to be seen. So I wouldn't judge it until we've seen if the intended effects of the regulation come to pass.
      - kj99 3y ago
        USB c hardly makes a dramatic difference to consumer choice, not that it’s bad.
        jacknews 3y ago
        You obviously don't remember the situation with mobile phone chargers before the EU mandated usb charging. Every manufacturer had a prorietary connector, voltage etc. Even different models from the same manufacturer often had different charging standards. Complete wasteful mayhem.
wpwpwpw 3y ago
The problemare the walled gardens. I believe if people could own their hardware, as in install the OS and bootloader they want, all of this wouldn't matter. Just make this and common interfaces for hardware mandatory and let companies create their own ecosystems compete with the preinstalled ones.
nonrandomstring 3y ago
I am having most extraordinary deja-vu. How have we got to be in the same place 20 years later [0] ! Back then it wasn't even the E.U. but the US Government prosecuting the case. Apple have learned well from the masters, and are claiming the same pathetic, dishonest drivel as Microsoft tried at the start of this century. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Microsoft https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Microsoft
jmull 3y ago
It looks like this is just in a beta version of iOS. I’ll worry if/when ios gets released like this.
- StreetChief 3y ago
  it's the third version of the beta, with the final version coming in March[1]. [1]https://www.macrumors.com/guide/ios-17-4-beta-features/ https://www.macrumors.com/guide/ios-17-4-beta-features/
AlDante2 3y ago
I read many articles like this, protesting that Apple doesn't do this, Apple doesn't do that. Apple isn't a monopoly, by any stretch of the imagination. 13% of the US market in Macs, 25% in mobile phones. Starbucks has a markup of 90%. Named brand spices, 100%. Hotel mini-bars, 400%. But Apple, which built the concept of an App Store, built the platform and the payment infrastructure, advertises and delivers the product, is somehow the bad guy for charging for it. Have you tried asking Walmart how much you would have to pay to sell your product in their store? I understand. Apple targets the high-end, so their consumers tend to be the well-heeled and hence a truly desirable market. It's like being a goat behind a fence, where all of the best green is on the other side. But, to leave the caprine behind us, what would you pay for access to a customer basis like the iPhones, including billing and distribution? It's not as if you have to use the App Store. Deliver your apps via your own web page, advertise accordingly, and implement billing, with the attendant security. Bob is then your uncle. Or sell to the majority market - 75% of mobile, 87% of desktop. You know it makes sense. Until you realise that there is minimal protection against wrongdoers, which makes your market skittish. Nor much support in the way of promotion. Still, most studies state that PC and Android are the way to go if you want peak sales. Just do it.
- jerojero 3y ago
  Where did you get this data? A quick search shows me in the US market iOS makes for 55% and google for 45%. [1] Also there's a big generational gap too with younger people in the USA vastly preferring the iPhone to android (most likely due to social pressure rather than free choice). [1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/266572/market-share-held-by-smartphone-platforms-in-the-united-states/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/266572/market-share-held...
- chatmasta 3y ago
  > It's not as if you have to use the App Store. Deliver your apps via your own web page, advertise accordingly, and implement billing, with the attendant security. This just isn't true. You cannot implement the same features in a Web app as you can in a native app.
Something1234 3y ago
Are there really still good browser based video games out there? It seems like after flash died the only things out there are based on mobile games with very frustrating time based mechanics. There's no adventure or story in them. There's very few platformers if any. The vast majority are the cursed idle game.
alberto180 3y ago
At this point they are begging to be punished. No way the EU can save their face without a reaction after all these Middle fingers from Apple

36 points by agust 3y ago

I have some sympathy for Apple here. The EU required Apple to offer the option of multiple browser engines. PWAs cannot integrate with iOS without using iOS's engine. So there's no way to legally offer that feature.

gmerc 3y ago
That’s nonsense.
commoner 3y ago
Why should anyone give Apple sympathy for restricting PWAs to Safari in iOS? There is no valid reason for Apple to prevent PWAs from opening in the default browser selected by the user.
- kj99 3y ago
  You know as well as everyone else does that PWA’s require the browser to be able to integrate with the platform at the level of the OS which would break iOS’s security model. You might want the EU to force iOS to be an open platform, but I don’t think that was their intent when they made the requirement to allow alternate browsers.
  - veeti 3y ago
    > which would break iOS’s security model And how is that exactly? Can you please elaborate? It's all so familiar: just a year ago Apple would have had us believe that "You know as well as everyone else does that third party browser engines must integrate with the platform at the level of the OS which would break iOS’s security model." Well, that obviously wasn't true, but there's still sheeple who will take the bait again and again :-)
    - kj99 3y ago
      [flagged]
      - veeti 3y ago
        So you're just talking out your ass then.
        kj99 3y ago
        [flagged]
        veeti 3y ago
        Okay, enjoy fellating the $2.8 trillion company online for virtual points, I'm sure they will throw you a free MacBook at some point.
        kj99 3y ago
        I think you’ve made my point quite nicely.
        veeti 3y ago
        We're all waiting for your technical arguments on the point, but it doesn't sound like you are actually interested in having a conversation that could be called intellectual in some way.
        kj99 3y ago
        Do you expect me to take you seriously after your last few comments? Who in their right mind would have a technical discussion with you?
  - commoner 3y ago
    Preventing other browsers from implementing PWAs does not improve security in iOS. This is a self-serving restriction intended to discourage users from switching away from Safari.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - kj99 3y ago
      How exactly does it discourage users from switching away from safari?
      - commoner 3y ago
        With these changes, Safari is the only browser allowed by Apple to implement PWAs on iOS, which gives Safari an advantage over the other browsers that are not allowed to implement PWAs on iOS. Anyone who uses PWAs on iOS must do so via Safari. PWA users who prefer a non-Safari browser on iOS must switch between their preferred browser and Safari for their web browsing needs. The additional burden of maintaining two web browsers discourages these users from switching away from Safari, and the entire setup prevents these users from leaving Safari completely.
        kj99 3y ago
        That’s not what’s happening here. PWA’s are disabled altogether in the EU to avoid exactly this favoritism.
        commoner 3y ago
        According to the article, the latest iOS beta prevents non-Safari browsers from adding PWA icons to the home screen. These changes retain iOS's favoritism of Safari.
        kj99 3y ago
        Not just non-safari browsers.
  - alberto180 3y ago
    They worked just fine until now. Also PWA's are sandboxed in the Browser, and Apple still reviews every App, even the 3rd Party ones
calgarymicro 3y ago
Since Apple has to approve every browser anyway (whether on the App Store or not), why couldn't they just enable it only for WebKit browsers? But putting even that totally aside, more engines does absolutely nothing to explain why they've also ended PWAs' ability to run in full-screen mode.

snvzz 3y ago

Apple sure has a lot of money, but this doesn't mean they can be allowed to think that they can do whatever they want. EU can and should tighten the screws. Exponential fines. It is free money for the EU.

LeoPanthera 3y ago
Apple is doing exactly what the EU required them to do.
- piva00 3y ago
  Not the spirit of the law, which matters in the EU.
  - kj99 3y ago
    In this instance I’m pretty sure it is the spirit of the law. The spirit of the law was to allow competing browser engines to be on an equal footing.
- goosedragons 3y ago
  Apple is made up of the kids who when told to stop touching their sibling, holds their finger a mm away.

kj99 3y ago

People keep saying things like ‘affront to regulation’, but the regulation wasn’t written to make iOS more open. It was written to enable certain other middlemen more access to specific parts of iOS. If the EU wanted to force iOS to be an open platform, they could have written a law to that effect. I wish people would realize that just because the EU is regulating Apple and it’s fun to see power be brought to bear against Apple, it doesn’t mean the EU is actually competent to regulate the market.

commoner 3y ago
> it doesn’t mean the EU is actually competent to regulate the market The EU has done more to improve consumer choice in the mobile app industry than any other region in the world. They can go even further, but their progress so far certainly demonstrates competence.
- kj99 3y ago
  What are you talking about?
  - jerojero 3y ago
    USB C comes to mind. I think that's an example of a successful regulatory measure. What will happen with the DMA is still to be seen. So I wouldn't judge it until we've seen if the intended effects of the regulation come to pass.
    - kj99 3y ago
      USB c hardly makes a dramatic difference to consumer choice, not that it’s bad.
      - jacknews 3y ago
        You obviously don't remember the situation with mobile phone chargers before the EU mandated usb charging. Every manufacturer had a prorietary connector, voltage etc. Even different models from the same manufacturer often had different charging standards. Complete wasteful mayhem.

wpwpwpw 3y ago

The problemare the walled gardens. I believe if people could own their hardware, as in install the OS and bootloader they want, all of this wouldn't matter. Just make this and common interfaces for hardware mandatory and let companies create their own ecosystems compete with the preinstalled ones.

nonrandomstring 3y ago

I am having most extraordinary deja-vu. How have we got to be in the same place 20 years later [0] ! Back then it wasn't even the E.U. but the US Government prosecuting the case. Apple have learned well from the masters, and are claiming the same pathetic, dishonest drivel as Microsoft tried at the start of this century. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Microsoft https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Microsoft

jmull 3y ago

It looks like this is just in a beta version of iOS. I’ll worry if/when ios gets released like this.

StreetChief 3y ago
it's the third version of the beta, with the final version coming in March[1]. [1]https://www.macrumors.com/guide/ios-17-4-beta-features/ https://www.macrumors.com/guide/ios-17-4-beta-features/

AlDante2 3y ago

I read many articles like this, protesting that Apple doesn't do this, Apple doesn't do that. Apple isn't a monopoly, by any stretch of the imagination. 13% of the US market in Macs, 25% in mobile phones. Starbucks has a markup of 90%. Named brand spices, 100%. Hotel mini-bars, 400%. But Apple, which built the concept of an App Store, built the platform and the payment infrastructure, advertises and delivers the product, is somehow the bad guy for charging for it. Have you tried asking Walmart how much you would have to pay to sell your product in their store? I understand. Apple targets the high-end, so their consumers tend to be the well-heeled and hence a truly desirable market. It's like being a goat behind a fence, where all of the best green is on the other side. But, to leave the caprine behind us, what would you pay for access to a customer basis like the iPhones, including billing and distribution? It's not as if you have to use the App Store. Deliver your apps via your own web page, advertise accordingly, and implement billing, with the attendant security. Bob is then your uncle. Or sell to the majority market - 75% of mobile, 87% of desktop. You know it makes sense. Until you realise that there is minimal protection against wrongdoers, which makes your market skittish. Nor much support in the way of promotion. Still, most studies state that PC and Android are the way to go if you want peak sales. Just do it.

jerojero 3y ago
Where did you get this data? A quick search shows me in the US market iOS makes for 55% and google for 45%. [1] Also there's a big generational gap too with younger people in the USA vastly preferring the iPhone to android (most likely due to social pressure rather than free choice). [1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/266572/market-share-held-by-smartphone-platforms-in-the-united-states/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/266572/market-share-held...
chatmasta 3y ago
> It's not as if you have to use the App Store. Deliver your apps via your own web page, advertise accordingly, and implement billing, with the attendant security. This just isn't true. You cannot implement the same features in a Web app as you can in a native app.

Something1234 3y ago

Are there really still good browser based video games out there? It seems like after flash died the only things out there are based on mobile games with very frustrating time based mechanics. There's no adventure or story in them. There's very few platformers if any. The vast majority are the cursed idle game.

alberto180 3y ago

At this point they are begging to be punished. No way the EU can save their face without a reaction after all these Middle fingers from Apple